topic Re: Phase sequence relay in AutoCAD Electrical Forum

Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 17:25:06 GMT

Hello,

I'm trying to include a Phase Sequence Relay to my schematics, using IEC library. This kind of relay connects to the 3 phases, and also has a reversible NO/NC contact.

The IEC symbol for this relay, code VCR1F42, is like a coil, with 2 terminals only, aligned vertically.

How should I add it to the schematics? If I try cloning it to the 3 phases, ACE warns of repeated tags.

I also tried creating my on symbol, but was not able to create one that connects to the end of the wire (besides in the midle of it) and behaves as a "parent" symbol that could be later linked to the NO/NC contact.

I was not able to find any examples out there using it, would appreciate if anyone could suggest online training sources.

Thanks for any ideas.

Mauricio

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 18:08:07 GMT

Just a few ideas:

1. Convert this drawing to a one-line schematic, this way you only need ne item.

2. You can insert the latch relay (child coil), link it to the original Relay Sensing lack of phase, and then edit the child block to look like its parent, see the picture below

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 18:16:05 GMT

Thanks for the reply.

For the first idea, converting to a single-line schematic, that could be used in other projects, but this one is for the panel assembly, so I need the full schematic for line number referencing.

Regarding the idea of using the latch relay, still I would not have the correct pin list. I don't understand why this component is presented as in-line, since it is a end-of-line equipment.

What I have done so far is drawing a custom component for connecting to the 3 phases, and using a reversible contact for the relay, as below, but I could not link the custom component to a manufacturer component in the library (because it is a child component).

Re: Phase sequence relay

testsubject — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 18:52:39 GMT

Can you post the two symbols that you created so that we can take a look at them?

You should be able to create a symbol with 3 terminals representing the parent and a separate symbol with the reversible contact for the child.

Naming convention is important; the first 3 characters have to be the same. The fourth character for the parent has to be "1" and the child has to be "2".

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 20:11:47 GMT

Sure, here it is. But I was unable to create a "parent" block, only a child. Trying to create a parent symbol, ACE asked for aligned top/bottom terminals, and this is not my intention, since I want to have it in the end of line.

I did not create a block for the contact, as I was planning to use the existing ones, but since my relay block is a child block, I could not assign a component to it anyway...

Sorry if this is too basic, but I'm struggling to learn the first steps of it.

Re: Phase sequence relay

testsubject — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:40:06 GMT

After taking a quick look, you have most everything set up except for the following:

If this is the parent, TAG2 needs to be TAG1.

The filename itself shows that it is a child component.

The parent needs to be VDV1_002 and the Child needs to be VDV23_002.

Fixing both of those should get you going.

DV is usually reserved for general devices. If you want this to act like a relay use the family code CR instead.

The 5th character is reserved for contact states; 1=NO, 2=NC, 3=Reversible.

For example, the filename for the NO contact would be VCR21_(whatever you want here...)

Also V refers to the vertical symbol and H is for the horizontal symbol. The software will automatically switch them based on wire orientation.

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:23:41 GMT

Thanks for the tips, but the issue is that I could not set it up as a parent and having the terminals in the position they are. I understand that a parent need to have in-out terminal pairs, and that would not make sense for this device.

I ended up turning it around as follows:

1. Create a Parent device, based in the Form C contact VCR23. Name it as VCR1

2. Save my original device as a Child device, named VCR21_001

To use, first insert the contact VCR1, assign the Component definition to it. After, insert the child device to L1, L2, L3 and pick the parent reference.

Thanks all for the tips on the topic.

Re: Phase sequence relay

testsubject — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:56:08 GMT

I am still a little concerned with you assertion that the Parent has to have terminal pairs. This is not the case.

I often draw a symbols with only terminals in the Left (or top in your case). A safety relay is an example of this. The main symbol has all the terminals on the left side (for connecting EStops) and the NO contacts drawn as separate child symbols.

Maybe you can post a drawing with your symbols installed and I can open it in an IEC project to check it out.....

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 15:02:32 GMT

Well, I assumed that, since every time I tried to create a symbol with "orphaned" terminals, ACE would give me an error at save time, with text "Insertion Point: Not in line with wire connections", as in the image below.

Re: Phase sequence relay

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 17:30:05 GMT

Well, I just ignored the message about aligned terminals, and tried to save anyway, and it did save...

Boy, I fell stupid right now 😬

Re: Phase sequence relay

testsubject — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:41:17 GMT

No problem.

This software is pretty powerful. You can create some very unique symbols with it.

I like to use the PLC I/O as a wire number but it does not work if the wire is coming from off the page. I created a set of Source Destination symbols that "flip" the arrows so the source looks like a destination and the destination look like the source. Now the Wire Number pulls backwards through the wire.... but looks like it comes from off page.