topic Re: Render an object's outline in 3ds Max Forum

Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:40:04 GMT

I have some objects which need to be rendered with an outline...like the edges made by the Ink'n'Paint material, but without using Ink'n'Paint.

The problem with Ink'n'Paint is two-fold:

1 - Arnold doesn't like it (if I had my way, I'd still be using MentalRay; Arnold is way more complicated than my needs require).

2 - The 'Paint' part of Ink'n'Paint is very limited and limiting; the hoops you have to jump through to make a non-opaque material alone makes it useless.

...and, heck, for Honorable Mention:

3 - Doing an internet search for anything with "3DS MAX" and "outline" turns up two things: project outlines and people asking the same question I am and being told to use Ink'n'Paint.

I'm trying to do something like this:

...or something vaguely "Tron"-esque.

Is there a way to do this, and a way to do it that's simple? Preferably something without a ton of unnecessary and unwanted bells and whistles, something to just plug into a Map slot with controls for color and line width and that's it? Ink'n'Paint adding only the ink, not the paint?

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:13:04 GMT

Hi,

Did you watch this video yet?

I'm not sure if it will do exactly what you need, but you might be able to customise it a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxt1jueNcaU

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:37:08 GMT

That's not what I'm after at all.

I don't want a glow, I want an outline.

Like the "Stroke" function in Photoshop, but in MAX.

Or like the ink in Ink'N'Paint, but without the paint.

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:48:48 GMT

Yup, I get that. I just thought that maybe it might be kinda handy, if mis-used somehow, to create glowing edges.
It seems that Mental Ray was the best, and easiest for doing this stuff alright.

I saw the thumbnail, and this part of the video and thought that maybe the process could be 'abused' somehow to create edge glow.

Is there a dedicated Arnold forum for questions and answers like this, just wondering.
It seems like more of a development type query, if nothing that does this exists in Arnold.

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:54:20 GMT

Okay...but...I don't want glowing edges.

I want an outline like Ink'n'Paint, but without Ink'n'Paint's limitations for the base material.

Because those limitations are very unworkable for my purpose.

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:19:14 GMT

Ok,

Clutching at straws now, but here's an example from a 3rd Party shader add on collection:

https://www.binaryalchemy.de/index_dev.htm

Every other 3rd Party Shader resource I clicked into, just ended up at a dead website.
Seems a lot of other people, besides you, got sick of how complicated and obtuse it is.

Last resort: https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/arnold/ct-p/arnold

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:25:22 GMT

I don't see anything in that collection about outlining an object.

It seems to be that everything you're offering involves glows.

I'm not after a glow effect. I'm not even a little bit after a glow effect.

See this:

See the black outline...? I need to do that but without using Ink'n'Paint.

And, if possible, not using Arnold. Arnold is needlessly complicated.

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:43:38 GMT

Hi,

The reason I'm offering 'Glow' examples is because I presume the glow distance can be shortened so as to only light up the edges, like you show in your example, but if you don't what that, fair enough:

The next best thing I can offer, which I presume you've already looked at, is Toon Shading in Arnold:
https://arnoldrenderer.com/news/toon-shader-calder-moore/ Although from what I have read about it, it's pretty useless too, unless you have a head the size of a planet.

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:42:43 GMT

Whenever I try to kludge something like that, there is always--and I do mean always--something dealbreakery about it.

The truly vexing part is that the functionality is there, clearly...it just comes with baggage that makes it un-usable for my purposes. I need the effect that's already there...but without the baggage.

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:48:56 GMT

Getting completely away from Arnold, there's always QuickSilver and it's support for OSL shaders (one of which might be helpful, if QuickSilver doesn't natively shade outlines somehow itself, not sure... I've never used it):
https://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2020/ENU/?guid=GUID-CB9141FC-2D52-4EDA-8F78-2351AB53B31B

QuickSilver might also do a better job utilising Ink'n'Paint, giving more options perhaps?
I seem to remember being able to completely turn off the Paint section of it in vRay years ago.

Even Scanline might be helpful, not sure. I haven't tried both Quicksilver or Scanline in years for some reason.

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:57:39 GMT

Ink'n'Paint is exactly the same in Quicksilver.

The biggest problem is opacity.

Ink'n'Paint doesn't support it. To make it work, I needed to embed multiple Composite materials inside a Blend material, and it was a gigantic mess. And it also didn't always work; sometimes, other objects behind these translucent toon-shaded objects would turn black...which required making a copy of the toon-shaded object, using a Push modifier to make it ever so slightly smaller, then put a completely invisible Standard material on that object.

It's a gigantic pain in the butt, and I'm shocked MAX hasn't fixed this crap yet.

EDIT: I take it back. Ink'n'Paint is not the same in QuickSilver.

It doesn't work at all.

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 16:01:15 GMT

Sounds like it sucks alright. I mainly work in realisim type shading, so I don't know a lot (not much at all) about this.

I just found this AU talk from 2022, but the link to the video is dead.

https://www.autodesk.com/autodesk-university/class/Exploring-Stylized-Looks-Arnold-Toon-Shader-3ds-Max-and-OSL-2021

@CiroCardoso3v any ideas?

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 16:03:18 GMT

If you search the web, you'll find page after page of people lamenting the absence of this functionality, but apparently Autodesk has turned a deaf ear in the, what, decade or more of Ink'n'Paint's existence...?

Re: Render an object's outline

darawork — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 17:26:38 GMT

Going back to the Arnold aiToon shader, I found this that might be helpful:
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/arnold-for-3ds-max/outlines-and-shaders/m-p/11062963

And this video goes through the steps for using the aiToon Shader in what looks like 3DSmax:
https://youtu.be/hWJEVKK7RLw

Another one, this time showing pencil sketch outlines:
https://youtu.be/ZKXiKDHASJ0

Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

Diffus3d — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:47:03 GMT

Is doing it in post an option? Some ideas:

Curvature render pass magic might make this simple
Maybe this old school method? (Still needs a toon pass but no outlines which is done in post.) This is what I use for toon shaders, works best after all these years even. Re-rendering even once for a client that wants slightly thicker lines costs money and this method makes it a cheap and easy fix.
Another option is to use the data channel modifier and set curvature to the opacity of a shader on the object or something.

Otherwise this is a function of the renderer. Vray has a toon shader (it's ok, but not great), Pencil 4+ has a toon shader for anime, and I think finaltoon has the best (historically).

Best Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:48:03 GMT

I prefer to do as little in post as possible.

Re: Render an object's outline

Diffus3d — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:59:30 GMT

Maybe you can fake it by duplicating the model, flipping the normals, and putting a negative push on it. (Games style.) Otherwise, you either spend money on the renderer, spend money re-rendering, or spend money in post.

Best,

Re: Render an object's outline

quinnredshift — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:01:09 GMT

Autodesk has some of the most bizarre blind spots when it comes to these sorts of things.

Re: Render an object's outline

Diffus3d — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:07:06 GMT

It's a solved problem though, but you have to learn the features of new renderers. I understand your position, but also this is the wrong field for resting on the same knowledge for 10 years straight. Adapt or die. (I mean that with all due respect and politeness.)

Here's an example of the game renderer technique.

Best Regards,

Re: Render an object's outline

Diffus3d — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:09:25 GMT

Another option even might be to take your model, put UV seams at every edge where you want an outline, then bring it into Substance Painter and use a generator - uv boundries on the alpha and get a texture that represents just the outlines. Then composite it over a flat shaded black color so the object culls itself, and voila! Not perfect but could work.

Best Regards,