Visual LISP, AutoLISP and General Customization

Visual LISP, AutoLISP and General Customization

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*James Maeding
Message 11 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-24-2004 03:41 PM in reply to: JeremyD
hmm, that is a great thought. I need to do that more, Its just hard to address every situation. I'll think on that some more, the other offices of H&A have done this a fair amount. Maybe the tool palettes play into this too, there has to be a reason to do palettes as opposed to toolbars. I guess they collapse and also have better thunmbnails than toolbars. thx "Laurie Comerford" |>Hi, |> |>Thanks James, although I did say C#, not C. We often type things in a hurry |>without fully understanding how others will read our words. |> |>I can't conceive that a casual customiser will learn C#. |> |>Let's face it, you get the maximum return for the least effort by |>customising the menus. |> |>My favourite thought is that you should never draw a line, rather you should |>draw an object, hence in the Civil world you would have something like: |> |>DrawCL [Draw |>centreline]^C^C^C-layer;m;Centrelines;c;yellow;;l;center;;pl; |>DrawKerb [Draw kerb]^C^C^C-layer;m;Kerbs;c;red;;pl; |> |>etc. James Maeding Civil Engineer/Programmer
*R.K. McSwain
Message 12 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-24-2004 07:28 PM in reply to: JeremyD
On 8/24/2004 5:00 PM James Maeding wrote: > no kidding, I would buy his software even at 2 grand a seat (its like > $300 for those that don't know...), its everything to my programing > efforts... Does that include the source code?
*James Maeding
Message 13 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 12:27 AM in reply to: JeremyD
Have you tried ObjectDcl? Its a Lisper's dream. Now let me adjust my taped black framed glasses and put my pen back in its pocket protecter . Maybe I need to get out more, but its really the best thing to happen to lisp in a long time. I bet I save 5 hours a week due to the ease of use compared to normal dcl. Thats about $2k a month at my companies billing rate. The fact is I can do just about anything I want to and I dont have to deal with the limitations of VBA and VB. Again, I love the structure of VB/VBA and use it for my home grown block manager, tool manager, vertical curve calculator, and meetings signup programs, but not for progs that have to draw a lot of stuff and gather data from the drawing and command line. Specialized programs are very costly in other industries but the best AutoCad programmers get pennies for their achievments. So yes, I am a Chad fan for sure. I'd love to show others how to use the ODCL too. I wish there was an ODCL group in these newsgroups. "R.K. McSwain" |>On 8/24/2004 5:00 PM James Maeding wrote: |> |>> no kidding, I would buy his software even at 2 grand a seat (its like |>> $300 for those that don't know...), its everything to my programing |>> efforts... |> |> |>Does that include the source code? James Maeding Civil Engineer/Programmer
*Martti Halminen
Message 14 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 12:44 AM in reply to: JeremyD
siarnne wrote: > On the other hand, I can see why Autodesk isn't falling over themselves > to make visual DCL, Visual DIESEL. > AutoLISP is a proprietary subset of CommonLISP which is almost non-existent > in desktop apps. Strictly speaking, this is incorrect: AutoLISP is far more like old pre-Common Lisp implementations (originated as XLISP), the closest relative would probably be MACLISP; it has several things which are not compatible with CL, so it can't be regarded as a subset. It lacks most of CL's powerful parts; for comparision, when AutoLisp still had a printed manual, it was about 60 pages. The index for Steele's "Common Lisp: the language", 2nd edition, is 60 pages, the whole book is about 1000 pages. The official Common Lisp standard would be about 1500 pages. Historically this is understandable, as way back in early 1980's when AutoLisp was introduced, running a full-size Lisp at bearable speed took a Symbolics Lisp Machine which cost about 100 000 $. The PC I am writing this on is about 500 times faster than a Symbolics 3650, so these days there is no problem using a full-size Common Lisp on commodity machines. The most intelligent thing AutoDesk could do regarding AutoLisp/VisualLisp would be to throw it away and replace it with a full-size CL from one of the commercial vendors, with a compatibility package to allow old AutoLisp code to run. - Whether this is politically possible is another question. --
*James Maeding
Message 15 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 02:13 AM in reply to: JeremyD
interesting, I like that idea. We still need command line interpretation though... Martti Halminen |>siarnne wrote: |> |>> On the other hand, I can see why Autodesk isn't falling over themselves |> |>> to make visual DCL, Visual DIESEL. |> |>> AutoLISP is a proprietary subset of CommonLISP which is almost non-existent |> |>> in desktop apps. |> |> |>Strictly speaking, this is incorrect: AutoLISP is far more like old |>pre-Common Lisp implementations (originated as XLISP), the closest |>relative would probably be MACLISP; it has several things which are not |>compatible with CL, so it can't be regarded as a subset. It lacks most |>of CL's powerful parts; for comparision, when AutoLisp still had a |>printed manual, it was about 60 pages. The index for Steele's "Common |>Lisp: the language", 2nd edition, is 60 pages, the whole book is about |>1000 pages. The official Common Lisp standard would be about 1500 pages. |> |>Historically this is understandable, as way back in early 1980's when |>AutoLisp was introduced, running a full-size Lisp at bearable speed took |>a Symbolics Lisp Machine which cost about 100 000 $. The PC I am writing |>this on is about 500 times faster than a Symbolics 3650, so these days |>there is no problem using a full-size Common Lisp on commodity machines. |> |>The most intelligent thing AutoDesk could do regarding |>AutoLisp/VisualLisp would be to throw it away and replace it with a |>full-size CL from one of the commercial vendors, with a compatibility |>package to allow old AutoLisp code to run. |> |>- Whether this is politically possible is another question. James Maeding Civil Engineer/Programmer
*Terry W. Dotson
Message 16 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 04:14 AM in reply to: JeremyD
James Maeding wrote: > Maybe I need to get out more, but its really the best > thing to happen to lisp in a long time. And what happens when the ARX spec changes yet again in a future AutoCAD making it incompatible, and the authors decide it hasn'nt been profitable enough to continue? Isn't this why Tony quit doing AcadX? Terry
*Jason Piercey
Message 17 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 05:45 AM in reply to: JeremyD
I've tried it, and find it very confusing to be honest. Haven't been able to complete a single simple project with it as of yet. Perhaps I am just not smart enough to figure it out. "James Maeding" wrote in message news:seeoi0t56r24jolb1mrsjgocfjumjti5j9@4ax.com... > Have you tried ObjectDcl? Its a Lisper's dream.
*R.K. McSwain
Message 18 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 07:17 AM in reply to: JeremyD
"James Maeding" wrote... > Have you tried ObjectDcl? Its a Lisper's dream.... Hmmm. I did not see an answer in there. I'm guessing that you do not get the source code. My point was the same as Terry's What happens to all your applications that depend on ObjectDCL if you do not have (and cannot get) a current version of it? I'm not knocking the usefulness of the product, just thinking down the road....
*Tony Tanzillo
Message 19 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 07:47 AM in reply to: JeremyD
"Terry W. Dotson" wrote > > And what happens when the ARX spec changes yet again in a future AutoCAD > making it incompatible, and the authors decide it hasn'nt been profitable > enough to continue? > > Isn't this why Tony quit doing AcadX? Not entirely. The cost of updating was only one aspect. The other is that there was not enough potential sales to support the effort required to produce comprehensive documentation. Selling software to programmers is not a good proposition. -- http://www.caddzone.com AcadXTabs: MDI Document Tabs for AutoCAD 2004/2005 http://www.acadxtabs.com
*Martin Shoemaker
Message 20 of 45 (152 Views)

Re: Why does Autodesk ignores the LISP community?

08-25-2004 08:02 AM in reply to: JeremyD
ODCL uses an arx file to house its methods. The arx for 2005 came out very promptly. Be careful looking down the road. It's true that there's never a guarantee that a product will be updated. It's also true that ODCL provides a lot of extra capability and cuts development time. Only you can decide whether the benefit outweighs the risk for you with what you do with AutoCad. Martin R.K. McSwain wrote: > "James Maeding" wrote... > >>Have you tried ObjectDcl? Its a Lisper's dream.... > > > > Hmmm. I did not see an answer in there. I'm guessing that you do not get the source code. > > My point was the same as Terry's > > What happens to all your applications that depend on ObjectDCL if you do not have (and cannot get) a current version of it? > > I'm not knocking the usefulness of the product, just thinking down the road....
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