Engineer or not an Engineer?

[The_Angry_Elf]

This is a hot button topic for me.

Up front, let me just say I'm NOT an Engineer, never wanted to be one....why you might ask, well, it started at a young age. My uncle was a Mechanical Engineer for GM and he's the type of Engineer where if you ask him what time it was, he'd tell you how to build a clock.

So, anyways....I've never once coined myself as an Engineer, mainly becuase I know full well what an actual degreed Engineer has to accomplish to get that degree and frankly I always felt it would be an insult to them.

So it really bugs me when I see people who are Designers mainly by the skin of their teeth, calling themselves "Engineers".

I know of a few like this, some have nothing more than a general high school diploma, a couple of others had all of an AS degree in liberal arts or literature, etc.....all calling themselves Engineers. It's one thing to refer to yourself as one in general conversation but to claim it to be your job title or even putting it on your resume???....WTF?

These are the same people who have on a few occations, modeled up a part, detailed it, signed it off as Designer, and Engineer, approved it for manufacturing and had these parts come back as total scrap (note: the director of Engineering actuallly supports them).

These are also the same people that don't believe that each detail drawing you make is actually a legal document and that if they sign off as Engineer, and that part fails, you are on the hook for it - legally. Simply consider the legal mess Engineers at GM are finding themselves in with the whole ignition switch disaster.

OK, enough of my rant, what's your take on non-degreed Engineers calling themselves Engineers?

[PatrickHughes]

Jim,

I'm with you brother. I never refer to myself as an engineer and when someone does refer to me as an engineer I will correct them. That is not a reflection on my part as not wishing to be considered an engineer, more so that I have not earned the degree. I am a very capable machine designer and I work in the engineering field - I might even be able to design machinery better than many engineers but that has more to do with my background and experience than anything else.

[AllenJessup]

I also agree Jim. I'm neither an Engineer nor a Surveyor but I work in both fields. But I am an Engineering Specialist. Not my idea for the title for a CAD Manger and Designer but...  I always try and correct people when they refer to me as either. It's surprising that I've had people include a P.E. or P.L.S behind my name. I'm one of those with only a High School diploma.

I think it's probably illegal to sign as an Engineer without the licence in any state. I'm sure it would be if a seal were involved. I'm happy to give the plan to an Engineer to review and sign.

Allen

[Jacob_Butler]

Hmm, I'm have to be the odd one out here. I hold the title Manufacturing Engineer at my work place and I do not hold a related degree. Now, I will never be regarded as a PE or anything and I actually used to have the same thoughts as you until I've started working in the field professionally. While I'm not a degree holder I find myself to be a lot more intelligent than some degree holders at my workplace, which is why I'm the head. I strongly believe in the idea that education can be self taught and learned on your own given motivation. I believe most of my experience is from on the job learning of course, but I also read many books and always find myself striving to learn more in my field. I think to justify a title based off of a piece of paper obtained from a school to be pretty strange. I think the title is earned through knowledge and experience. If you are just as knowledgeable about the field as a degree holder than why should you not be given the title?

[riff62]

This is an interesting topic to me..I have experience that proves I can engineer things that are just as viable as someone with a degree might be able to do, and my position typically requires a degree. But, I dont have the paper..While I used to think this was a big deal, I no longer really do. I am persuing a degree right now mainly to say I did it. I dont really refer to myself as an engineer, although I admit it is sometimes easier to just say "Im in engineering" than to explain what a Research Support Specialist working on Particle Accelerators does. Like one of the other posters, I read alot, and try to learn all the time. I try to design things that work, and there are alot of companies out there that have benefitted from the things I have designed. I have made a few people rich, and have helped many many people indirectly with the things my designs were and are used for. Can I design and build things and come up with solutions to problems?...Yes...Can I call myself an Engineer?..probably not...Do I care?..no...

I realize there are those who try to use minimal experience to their own benefit, and I am guessing this is what the original post was about. I made a sandwich for lunch today, but even though it was a good sandwich with the right cheese to ham to mustard ratios,  it doesnt qualify me to be a chef..lol..

[graemev]

"... what's your take on non-degreed Engineers calling themselves Engineers?"

In Alberta APEGGA has legal authority over the use of the term "engineer" and would (and have been known to) take quick action to quash any unauthorized useage, to the point of not allowing computer systems engineers to use the term.  Additionally, if they think you're actually doing engineering without a properly qualified engineer on staff, you'll be in big trouble.

[AllenJessup]

---

@graemev wrote:

In Alberta APEGGA has legal authority over the use of the term "engineer" and would (and have been known to) take quick action to quash any unauthorized useage, to the point of not allowing computer systems engineers to use the term. 

---

New York State Education Dept and Attorney General's office don't go quit that far. But if you tried to sign a plan or document that required a PE signature and it was brought to their attention. You'd certainly be in trouble.

Allen

[Mistress0fTheDorkness]

I have been called an architect a couple of times, and swiftly correct people (and not just because I worked in hvac, not architecture). No one has tried calling me an engineer before, though.

Lying on your resume or when bigging yourself up is another issue entirely. There's a guy locally who put on his resume that he'd been the President of our Local Users Group. I was asked by one of the employees of a potential new company to verify.

I verified on the record that he'd been a member and once a board member for the organization but not president, then I verified off the record that he was removed from the board by the other members because he tried to use his position to advertise instead of to educate.

Seriously? It's not enough to have been a member of the group and active with it a bit, you have to go just a little further and lie about your role?

At any rate, doing the salary survey, every year people ask me about the issue of titling. 'I am a cad coordinator, but, I do the same work as the engineer, or the project manager', etc. BUT, clearly, your employer, rightly or wrongly is going to pay you by your HR department's job grade related to the job title they give you. 

I don't get bent out of shape when I see a reseller calling their people 'applications engineers' because anyone with an iq higher than their age is not going confuse them for a PE. lol, though I did roll my eyes at my previous employer calling project management assistants (ie, they work for the project managers) "project engineers"... ZOMG how innappropriate and inaccurate and totally misleading. They're not engineering anything, not building systems, not software... where the heck did they pull that from?

But, when referring to people as their roles, I'm only going to call someone an engineer if I know they've got a stamp. The most those coworkers would get from me was 'they work in the PM department.' 

[AllenJessup]

I've been lucky. Calling my multi-role position an "Engineering Specialist" gets me on a par (salary wise) with a graduate Engineer or a little above. I'd suggested "Mapping Technologies Specialist" but they didn't like that. As long as I'm getting paid I'm fine with that.

Some of the nonsense like "Project Engineer" is just looking for higher billing. You can bill a lot more for a Project Engineer that an assistant. We've gotten bills for small projects that made it look like every principal in the firm was devoting the majority of their time to our job. We're being sued now by a firm that claims that because our job ran long that every single piece of equipment they had was idle. We know that they were working other jobs. Don't these people think anyone reads these things. We may not like it but everything get read. Hopefully by at least 2 people.

Call yourself anything you or your employer wants. But once you call yourself an Architect, PE or PLS, without the required license, you're breaking the law. Some also call themselves Dr. and practice medicine without being licensed. When they're found they're .

Allen

[riff62]

You should have suggested "Mapping Technologies Engineering Manager"..and
then asked them to double your salary since you were in management now..haha

[AllenJessup]

Strangely enough they determined that I could do better NOT being a manager. Two different unions so I'd have has a hard time moving in near the top. Staying where I am let me be in the second highest pay schedule for that union.

Allen

[riff62]

I'm holding out for Grand Exalted Mystic Ruler...or Grand PooBah

[Mistress0fTheDorkness]

Good stuff, Allen.

With my previous coworkers, I just don't get it at all. We're on the owner's side, so, we don't bill anything, we're all overhead. Maybe it was the Director trying to grow his empire or something, I don't know.

I do know their project engineers could barely open up cad files and couldn't remotely read MEPFP plans (seriously, as facilities, we don't give two squirts about architectural, it's just there to hold our piping, but, it seems to be the only thing the pm department cared about... probably because it's the only part they could understand).

~coughs~ Not that I'm bitter. 😄

I had a little come-to-jesus-meeting (as my old director called them) right before I quit. I told them everything they were doing wrong and how to fix it. If it stuck, it stuck, if it didn't... well, at least I know I gave it one last try and my conscience is clear.

[Mistress0fTheDorkness]

Nice.

I'm campaigning for "Her Dorkness". Having a hard time finding any data in the salary survey to back up my pay demands, though. 😉

[AllenJessup]

I am the very Model of a Modern Major General!

[dgorsman]

My boss occasionally uses my name as a unit of work when dealing with new software, as in "How many Davids will this take to support?".  Some of the IT people give me the unofficial rank of capital "Y" Yoda.  I'll take it.  😄

[sam_m]

(note. this isn't directed at dgorsman or anyone, just his post was the one i clicked reply on...)

Searching a job site here for the term 'engineer' produces many a varied result...

I can understand that someone working in an industry with multiple years experience (with or without the engineering qualifications) will be in a far better place to make a decision/design than a green-horn who's just got their paperwork, despite the latter having the title.  But...  I would argue that someone without the paperwork/qualifications to back up their title shouldn't be able to call themselves it, especially when there are recognised qualifications for said title.  Think of it as a driving test - I'm sure many can operate a vehicle perfectly safely before their test, but they're only allowed to drive on the road after gaining their paperwork.

I can swim, but I don't call myself a swimmer...

I get the impression it's possibly even worse over here in the UK (and thus why I get frustrated by it all).  Somehow we've devalued the term engineer so it's now regularly used to refer to pretty much any "hands-on" kind of job.  We have people that fit and service gas boilers calling themselves heating engineers or gas appliance engineers.  I've seen job listing for a position that I would have previous referred to as a telephone repair man (guy in a van driving around) is now a telecommunications engineer.  I've spoken with people that have introduced themselves as electrical engineers and when I've asked what they do, they've explained they're a fitter to lay cable and wire around new buildings.  It's a surprise that plumbers haven't started calling themselves engineers too.  It's this watering-down of the term engineer that annoys me.

Just me pre-Xmas engineering-title rant 😉

[AllenJessup]

Just to note. In New York State you can apply to take the PE test or the PLS test based on experience. But you better have done a LOT of studying on your own. The PLS is half legal questions mostly on State Surveying law.

Allen

[The_Angry_Elf]

Thanks everyone for your takes in this. MInd you, I'm fully aware and myself included, capable of doing engineer's work. Even worked for a major electrical company where the engineer was more interested in training for the Boston Marathon than doing his job and thus would pat me on the back and say "You can figure it out, I trust you" and off he'd go to run laps around the company track. And I did just that, I knew if I didn't the project would fall behind and being a contractor, my job would be on the line. But again, I did not sign off as the Engineer of the product, he did.

I guess it just irks me that people who basically can't design their way out of a paper bag, classify themselves as Engineers and can actually get away with it. I know one such person who, on his linkedin page has himself listed as a mechanical engineer, he's a poor designer, nevermind an engineer. But I digress.

I guess I get the same way when I see complete nimrods running successful company's, making mistake after mistake but somehow succeed...at least for a while. Jealousy? Yeah, probably considering I busted my butt in 2 business ventures only to have the timing be bad when it came to the economy and thus forcing me to eventually lay workers off and then eventually close my doors.

I guess my other concern is what happens if and when a product fails? Will they be on the hook or will their coddling manager somehow cover for them?

I know a few PE's and I know full well, this subject (especially with the persons I'm referring to) really, really ticks them off - they see it as a huge insult to what they accomplished for the PE license. I have to agree.

[jggerth1]

imo -the determining factor is personal and professional liability.  If one is calling themselves an engineer, and is legally entitled to do so, then they are putting both personal and professional liability in the line with every job.  Which is why there's such a thing a liability insurance available for engineers.

One of several reasons that invalidates completely the job title of "Software Engineer".  No one who hides behind an EULA  has any right to the term.