Revit MEP

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Valued Contributor rnp
Valued Contributor
rnp
Posts: 64
Registered: ‎12-02-2004
Message 21 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-20-2008 08:09 AM in reply to: Jarom05
All the features listed are great improvements.
Here is one: I'v a model that' 35 meg of mechanical ductwork.
it takes me 5 mins to delete a fiting. we've created great supply,return and exhaust system, now we're doing coordination. I've sent this support request to Autodesk as usual i get no response, so much for subscription crap.

I've the latest and greatest hardware...

i can open 260 meg architectural model on my machine and move, erase, copy at lighting speed.

why can't i simply move a duct or erase a fitting (it takes long long long time).


FYI: I've the set the view to coase and wireframe
Mechanical, HVAc...etc.

Worksets are standard for supply, return,e xhaust

i've audited, purged...
completed unloaded or removed the linked model,
stoped copy/monitor of rooms

I'm using the latest release webupdate 3 I believe.
Valued Contributor
joefields
Posts: 56
Registered: ‎07-23-2007
Message 22 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-20-2008 09:11 AM in reply to: Jarom05
I would recommend, since you are being forced to use Revit MEP, to learn it first. Play with the tutorials, find people to talk to, find another Autodesk training facility that is teaching Revit MEP (Some will do custom training to your needs), play play play play play. I would definitely agree that if you are just looking at the tutorials, the plumbing looks pretty bad, but if you just learn the basics you can begin to customize parts and learn tricks to make it work for you. If you don't like the content, learn to build some of your own pieces and parts. Sometimes there are fittings that might be almost what you need but they just need a little tweaking to get them there.

Working with Revit does have it's days, you can see the headaches many of us have gone through already by just looking through this forum and the AUGI forums. Personally I've had many of those moments were I wanted to toss my computer out the window because of Revit. In the end though, I've looked back at what I have learned and what we can see and do compared to our old 2D CAD and I am glad to be involved with this new movement.

The other piece of it is, it can only get better. Autodesk knows that BIM is the future of our industry and Revit is the best software to provide that. I am sure they are pouring enormous amounts of resources at the development of Revit MEP and from the looks of it, the next release will be yet another huge step forward for the program which is only on release 3 (2008). Did anyone really think AutoCAD had everything you needed in release 3, but they did what they could with it and got on with life. So go learn the software as much as you can and tell your boss it's going to take some time (just like trying to implement any new software).
Active Member
treknip
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎03-05-2008
Message 23 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-20-2008 02:02 PM in reply to: Jarom05
Thank you for your response. I have been trying to learn it via tutorials. I've done exactly what the tutorials have shown and it doesn't work well. I get elbows that are graphically to big. I get 4"x2" reducers that look like they are reducing from 8" down to 4". I have done my best to figure out why ths is and cannot find a solution. If I override the auto layout and bring in the actual fitting I need, the fitting comes in way too small. I did download some content from some websites unfortunately, some of the stuff doesn't work well either. Here is an example. I downloaded a wall mounted water closet. It had no waste connection to it. It wouldn't have mattered anyway because no one seems to understand that a wall mounted water closet requires a carrier. The water closets provided with the software all have 3" connections. That won't cut it. In the commercial world, water closets have a 4" connection. Beyond that, I have done as you suggested and just played with the software. The problem is, I still have work to do and deadlines to meet. I just don't have the time to figure out how to trick the software into working. I have informed the owner of the company of my my findings. Obviously, he is not pleased with Autodesk. I was told to wait for the next release and see if it has improved enough to be used. If not, I am glad that HE has to explain that to the Corp of Engineers, and not me.
Active Member
mfiglarz
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎03-26-2008
Message 24 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-26-2008 06:31 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Sometimes people need to get stuff of their chest so we need open forums like this… so please keep it coming. I too, am trying to take an Arch/MEP shop and change over to Revit … it’s not easy. The software is not there at all and we all know it. Sometimes I feel like I should return it b/c it’s broken. When I see comments like “the plumbing looks pretty bad, but if you just learn the basics you can begin to customize parts and learn tricks to make it work for you” it makes my head spin. If you buy a new car are you looking to customize it and learn tricks to make it work… no I don’t think so … let’s face it the software is not there. And hell I don’t know about you but we buy a nice Mercedes-Benz each year and it’s no C-Class for what we are paying but it performs like a Yogo sometimes. If you are paying this kind of money each year you should get software out of the box that does what it suppose to do, design a building from the ground up with out customize the hell out of it.

Autodesk needs to step up and own up that the software is not there but they are working on getting it to be a 100% modeling tool for MEP. We should not have to make sure pipe, duct or whatever else is made to code. ASME, NEMA and SMACNA are out there and we all follow their standards in design maybe the software should follow a standard as well for fitting, duct sizes, design standards and any other odd and ends that are created in the software.

I would think if a product was to say on the box, “Created to Meet Standards as of 2008” we all would feel a little better that AutoCAD is trying to create a product that is top notch.

I can go on and on about this but why… AutoDesk needs to take the software to small and big shops and see where people struggle and where things are just not working as they intended. After that tells us all what they saw were problems and how to deal with them. Be open and people will be much more understanding and help out if they can. Message was edited by: mfiglarz
Valued Contributor
joefields
Posts: 56
Registered: ‎07-23-2007
Message 25 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-26-2008 08:01 AM in reply to: Jarom05
I understand your frustrations, but I think there are some that expect to load up the software and have everything they need right out of the box. I don't know about you, but I have yet to hear of one firm out there that uses straight AutoCAD out of the box.

When we first got Revit MEP, we were instructed to just use out of the box stuff and not customize it. It didn't take very long to notice that if we wanted our Revit drawings to look like our AutoCAD ones, we needed to customize tags, symbols, and annotation. I know we would also need to build our own equipment in order to ensure that it all fits how we want it. The content is growing but there is still going to be the need to put an accurate model of what we are specifying into the model. I think it is going to be awhile before our manufacturers stop dragging their feet and actual build us some Revit models of there equipment.

That being said, you are going to need to learn how to create your own families regardless of how much content there is and how well built the software is. I also have to go back to the fact that Revit MEP is on release #3 and if you ask anyone who has been using it since it came out, they'll tell you it has come a long way. This type of software can't get all it's kinks and bugs worked out by developing the crap out of it in a lab somewhere. You have to get it out there and get feedback from the users on how to make it better. That is why there are forums like these and AUGI where there are actual Autodesk employees who take time to talk to us and find out what we need and are looking for. There is also the Autodesk MEP Customer Council (http://adskmepcc.com/projects/j101036208/open.cfm?language_id=1&sc=QURVOEE%3D&job=MTAxMDM2MjA4&em=V0VC&ntsh=vnig6hkkub) which is another way to voice your opinions.
Distinguished Contributor
vewright
Posts: 145
Registered: ‎06-14-2000
Message 26 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-26-2008 12:58 PM in reply to: Jarom05
Actually, I know a number of users who do just that--they stick with AutoCAD and draw lines, circles, and arcs. I know some other designers who have ADT and/or ABS (MEP), but use it as plain vanilla AutoCAD. Why? Because when you get a budget for a project, it doesn't include time for training, building content, etc. In the case of designers who have Revit, many of them just don't use it. It's all economics.

So, why do these designers buy Revit? I bought it because it was a good deal at the time. The vendor told me that it wasn't quite there yet, but I went ahead and bought it because ABS came with it, and I figured that sooner or later it would be usable.

Other designers end up with Revit on their machines for other reasons. Here's one scenario. Instead of pitching to its customers--A/Es and other designers--Autodesk pitches to its cusomers' customers. They make a pitch to the Corps of Engineers, GSA, Department of the Navy, Department of the Army, Department of the Air Force, and a host of Fortune 500 corporations. They put on a slick demo, admittedly canned and well-rehearsed, about all the benefits the owner will realize if their consultants use Revit. The Corps, etc. foams at its collective mouth, and issues a decree that all design documents will be prepared with Revit. Any firm that wants to do business with these agencies is forced to buy Revit. The principals that buy Revit don't actually have to use it, or even know how to use it--they just pass the decree on to their designers. Case in point--in the 70's and 80's, you had to have Intergraph if you wanted to do work for Kentucky Fried Chicken, at $60K per seat.

As far as plumbing goes, you are correct--plumbing seems to be the weakest part of any MEP package, and Revit MEP is no exception. However, the plumbing tutorial destroys any credibility that might exist. Although the tutorial does illustrate a few techniques that one would probably not discover by accident, the system as modeled would not pass any plan reviewer's scrutiny. Most reviewers would end up on the floor laughing if someone submitted drawings of this system. There are no individual vents. Some fixtures are wet-vented. The sinks don't have traps. Should new users be able to rise above such trivial points? Probably. But, the fact is that most people don't respond to contrived examples as well as to realistic ones.

As far as being negative in forums, how else can you make a point? Autodesk isn't going to fix problems if they don't know they exist. And, believe you me, there are problems!
Valued Contributor
JacobJBB
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎08-20-2007
Message 27 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-26-2008 01:23 PM in reply to: Jarom05
I think this was the best entry I've ever read on this forum. Great wisdom. I never realized it but the vendors absolutely do that. They never pitch Revit to the MEP firms, the actual users! Instead they try to sell the products to the developers and architects.
Contributor
scettus
Posts: 18
Registered: ‎01-31-2008
Message 28 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-30-2008 04:58 PM in reply to: Jarom05
As a representative of a firm that has successfully completed a large MEP project in Revit, I think that the actual problem here is the lack of understanding of the software, from everyone from the resellers, to some autodesk support people, to the users, and really no where to go for useful information.

Things are getting better with that now though.

That aside, there are some problems with it. Generally, the content is poor. But, the bottom line is figure it out, or don't use the product.

I also think that none of the auto routing features and sizing features work well enough at the moment, but Revit is very capable of adding, sizing, and scheduling equipment based on passed along values. So you take what works.

I also don't think any of us are ever going to really have absolutely everything modeled on a job. We are sort of foolish to think so. There is still some abstraction.

Yeah, it is hard being on the ragged, bleeding edge.

I still think it is pretty cool.
Distinguished Contributor
cwade
Posts: 352
Registered: ‎08-01-2006
Message 29 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

08-07-2008 09:37 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Trust me, do yourself a favor and spend the money on formal training, I don't think you can learn Revit properly without some sort of training beyond tutorials and what is available online. Also take advantage of your dealer's support. But make sure you find a dealer with extensive knowledge in Revit MEP, it is quite different from the other Revit products out there and finding the right dealer can be a challenge.
Mentor
RedMan77
Posts: 228
Registered: ‎08-11-2008
Message 30 of 30 (205 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

08-11-2008 08:37 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Kyle,
I have had the privilege to work with you on issues as they relate to Revit MEP from the re-seller side and the engineering/contractor side. It is my opinion that I have a fairly descent pulse on the industry. I believe your heart is in the right place with absolutely no agenda other than to help people. While I loved to work with Autodesk products and teach people everyday, my most painful part was trying to convince people of Revit MEP when I wasn't convinced myself. It appears as if Architects are the big driver/catalyst in pushing the Revit name forward. I know and believe in the benefits Revit has to offer. What I have issue with is the severe lack of content (still as of this latest release) and almost no electrical/mechanical engineers to guide users through the beginning rough patches. Certain re-sellers are hiring these people. You are very knowledgeable but they were times the Autodesk staff didn't have an answer because they didn't have the background to understand how an engineer needs to have things done. So I had to try to figure things out fro myself, which was a very long and painful process. For lack of a better analogy, "Engineers are trying to be pushed into a square hole when they themselves are round". The application has gained strength but I have sat in many of meetings where the architect didn't understand why the engineering field hasn't embraced MEP they way they have embraced Revit Arch. An engineering firm can run with revit MEP but they will have to create a fairly extensive library of custom content. That is a hard sell despite the many benefits the program offers. That is my two cents worth.
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