Revit MEP

Revit MEP

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Distinguished Contributor
Jarom05
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
Message 1 of 30 (236 Views)

Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

236 Views, 29 Replies
03-13-2008 07:52 AM
Autodesk,
We are all having issues with Revit MEP, and I am sure we all see the potential of the program. But even some of the product suppliers and support personal (specific titles and name withheld) have said that the program was released premature and that it does not work completely. The amount of program crashes tend to make me believe that the program is also flawed.

My question is, what things can we expect to see improved in the next release? We have made our wish lists and suggestions, but how seriously have you taken our suggestions. Have you tried to give us the support, stability and features that we as users need and require, or have you pursued your own agenda? I am sure we all agree that Revit can be the #1 BIM program. Some reassurance would appreciated.

I would like to know what things you have fixed and added. Not just a blanket answer that you are doing the best you can. Being that WE are the customer, and you without us you would not have a successful company. We would like to what you have done with our money. My boss signs my paycheck, and has the right to know what progress I have made on projects. We would like to know what progress you have made as well.

Thanks for you time.
Employee
KyleB_Autodesk
Posts: 961
Registered: ‎10-21-2005
Message 2 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-16-2008 08:18 PM in reply to: Jarom05
Jarom,
I am assuming that you are reporting any reproducible crashes that you encounter to our Subscription Support team, as that is the best way to report and get resolution to specific technical issues you encounter in Revit MEP.

I agree that Revit MEP has its limitations, and I try to personally be as up front as possible about them in all discussions, either in person or on forums such as these. I don't see the value in providing incorrect information that will lead customers into bad places down the road. The Support Technician in me knows that is not a formula for customer success and satisfaction.

I would however, disagree a bit with the assertion that the application is fundamentally flawed. Revit Architecture has been around for 10+ releases, and AutoCAD 20+. Rome was not built in a day, nor a release, but I feel that Revit MEP is quite capable given its place in the typical software lifespan.

Now, to address your question regarding the upcoming release...Before I even get started, I have to bristle a bit at your assertion that we would choose to pursue our own agenda for the release. I try not to get too wound up with these forums, but you've hit a nerve. I have gone out of my way on these forums to solicit feedback on development items,asking open questions about needs within the application. Beyond that we actively engage customers for feedback and suggestions on product enhancements. This is done through direct relationships, Product Support Feedback, the MEP Customer Council, our reseller channel, and the Wishes Forums that exist in multiple online communities. It simply would make no business sense to pursue a personal agenda. We are a market-driven organization, and will continue to function that way into the future. As a public figure of that organization, I try to dedicate as much time as possible to interface with you in the user community.


As for new features and workflows in the upcoming release, I am already discussing them on my blog (which I do on my own time) in video form, so I'm not going to go into significant detail here. Nonetheless, let's hit the highlights.

* Large Model Optimization - We did a lot of effort on the performance of the application in large model scenarios. We made large advances in the area of data propagation, System Editor, and System Browser. We continue to investigate further optimization. All other capabilities of the application don't mean much if the application performs in a way that impedes user's abilities to be productive. We continue to investigate further optimizations of the application, and will implement them when feasible. There is always room for more improvement in this realm.

* Worksharing Usability - We received feedback from a number of sources highlighting difficulty in a Worksharing environment in Revit MEP this past year. As such, this was another area of significant effort. We did a large investigation into the Element Ownership of Revit MEP over the past development cycle. This investigation provided opportunities for improvement that significantly reduced the propagation of element ownership upon changes in the model. Our testing indicates valuable improvements to that end.

* Volumes - We carried out a lot of effort to improve the definition of volumes inside of the building. This is most clearly illustrated with the creation of the Space Element for Revit MEP users. Since volumes are so intricately tied to accurate Building Performance Analysis, we wanted to make sure that the tools at the disposal of Revit MEP users allowed for the definition of Volumes in most all building geometries. I've blogged about this in a lot of detail already.

* HVAC Zones - We created the Zone Element, which allows for the logical association of Spaces into a Zone. This allows users to define environmental variables at the zone level, as well as calculate Heating and Cooling Loads.

* Building Performance Analysis Enhancements - We allowed for further detailed control over the environmental variables for our Heating and Cooling Loads. This covers things like Outside Air quantities, detailed set points, and leaving air temperatures. Additionally, we added new parameters for check figures that allow for clearer understanding of our calculated loads, like CFM/Ton and Sq Ft/Ton. Finally, we now deliver peak load values for Spaces, Zones, Levels, and the entire building.

* Content - Between our mid-year Content Extension, and our upcoming release, we've added a number of valuable pieces of content to meet the needs of commercial projects. Including:
Commercial Condensing Units up to 130 Tons
Horizontal and Vertical Belt-Drive DX and CW Fan Coils, Stacked Fan Coils, Ceiling Mounted Fan Coils
Packaged Air Handlers to 25 Tons
Gas-Fired and Electric Commercial Packaged Rooftop Units to 130 tons
Downflow, Vertical, and Horizontal High Efficiency Water Source Heat Pumps up to 20 tons.
Occupancy and Dalylighting Sensors
Consolidation of Revit Architecture Light Catalogs with Revit MEP catalogs
Volumetric and Direct-Indirect Lights
Many different valves types
Packaged Air-Cooled Chillers
Centrifugal Water Cooled Chillers
Absorption Chillers
Multiple Styles of Cooling Towers
Multiple Styles of Boilers
Many different Fire Protection connections and valves.

We've also directly integrated Autodesk Content Search into the Revit UI for direct access to that online content resource, facilitating easy searches for additional content.

* Modeling in Sections and Elevations - This is a great modeling enhancement that is exactly what it sounds like. This will help significantly when modeling complex piping and ductwork.

* Light Fixture Transfer to the IES - For those users who use the full version of the IES , we now transfer the locations, light source orientation, and IES data file information of all Light Fixtures in the Revit MEP model to the IES . Within the you can carry out point-by-point lighting analysis.

* Size List Integration - We moved the size lists for Ducts and Pipes from XML files into the Revit Project. This makes these lists much more accessible. The ability to transfer them from project to project through "Transfer Project Settings" means you should have to customize the lists more than once.

* Panel Schedule Appearance and Sizing - You now can control the size of Panel Schedules on Sheets, as well as the font. Additionally, you can quickly adjust the column sizing through a master "width grip". Moving the Panel Schedules no longer resets the column sizing you've made.

* You can now snap to linked architectural ceiling grids in Mechanical or Electrical discipline RCP views.

* Layout Path - We've added the Base Element, which allows for routing even when there is no equipment placed for the logical System.

* Sloped Piping - Modification of the slope of piping runs now is more consistent, even when there are in-line Tees in the selected pipes.

* Wire Tick Marks - These are now standard Revit families and can be modified as desired.

* Tagging - You can now create a Label that references multiple Parameters. You can Tag all Not Tagged for Spaces and Rooms.

* 3D Navigation Enhancements - We added the View Cube and Steering Wheels, which simplify the manipulation of 3D Models. I've blogged about those already.

* Mental Ray Rendering - This rendering technology, the same found in AutoCAD and 3D Studio Max, allows for photorealistic rendering capability.

I know there's more, but it's late and those are the highlights I can think about off of the top of my head. I'll be interested to hear your feedback. I'll be blogging in detail about most of these over the coming weeks and months.

Cheers,
Kyle B
Revit MEP Product Manager
http://inside-the-system.typepad.com/


Kyle Bernhardt
Product Line Manager
Revit Services
Autodesk, Inc.

Distinguished Contributor
Jarom05
Posts: 157
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
Message 3 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-17-2008 08:01 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Kyle, sounds great. I look forward to the new release and implementing the new changes. I appreciate your responding.
Active Member
james25
Posts: 6
Registered: ‎01-21-2008
Message 4 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-18-2008 06:55 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Kyle,

You have just made my day. I have been assigned the task of bringing Revit MEP into my firm of architects and engineers. After becoming familiar with the program, I have recommended that we do not start training people on it until the next release due to the many shortcomings of the program. After reading what you posted here and on your blog, I am very excited about the next release and am confident that it will have the functionally that we need.

In my effort to learn the program, I have taken some 2D MEP plans that outside consultants have done for us and have reproduced them in Revit MEP. With the structural and architectural model linked in, it is amazing what issues arise that you just can’t see in the 2D drawings. So, it has already been worth my time to learn the program.

I do have one suggestion however. When running the interference check, I love that you can specify what objects you want to run the check for. However, when I want to see where my ducts run through the architects walls, there are several planned intersections where the ducts are supposed to run through the wall. I want to find out where I have accidentally drawn the duct through a wall. It would be helpful if you could sort of tag intersections after you draw a duct to let the program know that it is ok that I just drew the duct through a wall. Then, there could be the option to ignore those intersections in the interference check. This would save time as I wouldn’t have to filter through countless intersections to find maybe one that is actually an issue. I’m not sure how this would work, maybe there could be an option to run a simple interference check on the last run of ductwork that was drawn and then warnings with options of tagging would pop up? Just an idea.

Again, very excited about the next release. Thanks for the post.
*Se7en
Message 5 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-18-2008 07:51 AM in reply to: Jarom05
> * Modeling in Sections and Elevations - This is a great modeling
> enhancement that is exactly what it sounds like. This will help
> significantly when modeling complex piping and ductwork.

I have just went to CDs on my second Revit project and I cant imagine
how much time this feature alone would have saved me--and *will* save me
in the future-. Outstanding!



Kyle B [Autodesk] wrote:
> Jarom,
> I am assuming that you are reporting any reproducible crashes that
> you encounter to our Subscription Support team, as that is the best
> way to report and get resolution to specific technical issues you
> encounter in Revit MEP.
>
> I agree that Revit MEP has its limitations, and I try to personally
> be as up front as possible about them in all discussions, either in
> person or on forums such as these. I don't see the value in
> providing incorrect information that will lead customers into bad
> places down the road. The Support Technician in me knows that is
> not a formula for customer success and satisfaction.
>
> I would however, disagree a bit with the assertion that the
> application is fundamentally flawed. Revit Architecture has been
> around for 10+ releases, and AutoCAD 20+. Rome was not built in a
> day, nor a release, but I feel that Revit MEP is quite capable given
> its place in the typical software lifespan.
>
> Now, to address your question regarding the upcoming
> release...Before I even get started, I have to bristle a bit at your
> assertion that we would choose to pursue our own agenda for the
> release. I try not to get too wound up with these forums, but
> you've hit a nerve. I have gone out of my way on these forums to
> solicit feedback on development items,asking open questions about
> needs within the application. Beyond that we actively engage
> customers for feedback and suggestions on product enhancements.
> This is done through direct relationships, Product Support Feedback,
> the MEP Customer Council, our reseller channel, and the Wishes
> Forums that exist in multiple online communities. It simply would
> make no business sense to pursue a personal agenda. We are a
> market-driven organization, and will continue to function that way
> into the future. As a public figure of that organization, I try to
> dedicate as much time as possible to interface with you in the user
> community.
>
>
> As for new features and workflows in the upcoming release, I am
> already discussing them on my blog (which I do on my own time) in
> video form, so I'm not going to go into significant detail here.
> Nonetheless, let's hit the highlights.
>
> * Large Model Optimization - We did a lot of effort on the
> performance of the application in large model scenarios. We made
> large advances in the area of data propagation, System Editor, and
> System Browser. We continue to investigate further optimization.
> All other capabilities of the application don't mean much if the
> application performs in a way that impedes user's abilities to be
> productive. We continue to investigate further optimizations of the
> application, and will implement them when feasible. There is always
> room for more improvement in this realm.
>
> * Worksharing Usability - We received feedback from a number of
> sources highlighting difficulty in a Worksharing environment in
> Revit MEP this past year. As such, this was another area of
> significant effort. We did a large investigation into the Element
> Ownership of Revit MEP over the past development cycle. This
> investigation provided opportunities for improvement that
> significantly reduced the propagation of element ownership upon
> changes in the model. Our testing indicates valuable improvements
> to that end.
>
> * Volumes - We carried out a lot of effort to improve the
> definition of volumes inside of the building. This is most clearly
> illustrated with the creation of the Space Element for Revit MEP
> users. Since volumes are so intricately tied to accurate Building
> Performance Analysis, we wanted to make sure that the tools at the
> disposal of Revit MEP users allowed for the definition of Volumes in
> most all building geometries. I've blogged about this in a lot of
> detail already.
>
> * HVAC Zones - We created the Zone Element, which allows for the
> logical association of Spaces into a Zone. This allows users to
> define environmental variables at the zone level, as well as
> calculate Heating and Cooling Loads.
>
> * Building Performance Analysis Enhancements - We allowed for
> further detailed control over the environmental variables for our
> Heating and Cooling Loads. This covers things like Outside Air
> quantities, detailed set points, and leaving air temperatures.
> Additionally, we added new parameters for check figures that allow
> for clearer understanding of our calculated loads, like CFM/Ton and
> Sq Ft/Ton. Finally, we now deliver peak load values for Spaces,
> Zones, Levels, and the entire building.
>
> * Content - Between our mid-year Content Extension, and our
> upcoming release, we've added a number of valuable pieces of content
> to meet the needs of commercial projects. Including: Commercial
> Condensing Units up to 130 Tons Horizontal and Vertical Belt-Drive
> DX and CW Fan Coils, Stacked Fan Coils, Ceiling Mounted Fan Coils
> Packaged Air Handlers to 25 Tons Gas-Fired and Electric Commercial
> Packaged Rooftop Units to 130 tons Downflow, Vertical, and
> Horizontal High Efficiency Water Source Heat Pumps up to 20 tons.
> Occupancy and Dalylighting Sensors Consolidation of Revit
> Architecture Light Catalogs with Revit MEP catalogs Volumetric and
> Direct-Indirect Lights Many different valves types Packaged
> Air-Cooled Chillers Centrifugal Water Cooled Chillers Absorption
> Chillers Multiple Styles of Cooling Towers Multiple Styles of
> Boilers Many different Fire Protection connections and valves.
>
> We've also directly integrated Autodesk Content Search into the
> Revit UI for direct access to that online content resource,
> facilitating easy searches for additional content.
>
> * Modeling in Sections and Elevations - This is a great modeling
> enhancement that is exactly what it sounds like. This will help
> significantly when modeling complex piping and ductwork.
>
> * Light Fixture Transfer to the IES - For those users who use
> the full version of the IES , we now transfer the locations,
> light source orientation, and IES data file information of all Light
> Fixtures in the Revit MEP model to the IES . Within the
> you can carry out point-by-point lighting analysis.
>
> * Size List Integration - We moved the size lists for Ducts and
> Pipes from XML files into the Revit Project. This makes these lists
> much more accessible. The ability to transfer them from project to
> project through "Transfer Project Settings" means you should have to
> customize the lists more than once.
>
> * Panel Schedule Appearance and Sizing - You now can control the
> size of Panel Schedules on Sheets, as well as the font.
> Additionally, you can quickly adjust the column sizing through a
> master "width grip". Moving the Panel Schedules no longer resets
> the column sizing you've made.
>
> * You can now snap to linked architectural ceiling grids in
> Mechanical or Electrical discipline RCP views.
>
> * Layout Path - We've added the Base Element, which allows for
> routing even when there is no equipment placed for the logical
> System.
>
> * Sloped Piping - Modification of the slope of piping runs now is
> more consistent, even when there are in-line Tees in the selected
> pipes.
>
> * Wire Tick Marks - These are now standard Revit families and can
> be modified as desired.
>
> * Tagging - You can now create a Label that references multiple
> Parameters. You can Tag all Not Tagged for Spaces and Rooms.
>
> * 3D Navigation Enhancements - We added the View Cube and Steering
> Wheels, which simplify the manipulation of 3D Models. I've blogged
> about those already.
>
> * Mental Ray Rendering - This rendering technology, the same found
> in AutoCAD and 3D Studio Max, allows for photorealistic rendering
> capability.
>
> I know there's more, but it's late and those are the highlights I
> can think about off of the top of my head. I'll be interested to
> hear your feedback. I'll be blogging in detail about most of these
> over the coming weeks and months.
>
> Cheers, Kyle B Revit MEP Product Manager
> http://inside-the-system.typepad.com/
Valued Contributor
joefields
Posts: 56
Registered: ‎07-23-2007
Message 6 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-18-2008 02:43 PM in reply to: Jarom05
Kyle,

Great stuff! This is a huge help for us as we plan our upcoming Revit projects so we know what to expect as far as improvements go.

Just a couple of things that I would like some clarification on:

* Large Model Optimization
This has been a huge issue for us with one of our Revit jobs. We are in the CA phase and trying to do revisions gets almost unbearable because our model has gotten so large. We've lost countless hours waiting 15-20 minutes to open the file to losing work due to not being able to save because Revit is out of memory.

Is Revit finally going 64bit or is there some optimization for multi-core systems being implemented? How much improvement have you guys seen in your testing of large files? Is this across the board (i.e. improved opening files, save to central times, and general navigating and working in larger files)?

* Layout Path
Can you explain this a little more and what has been improved on the setting up and connecting to of systems? Also, you mentioned some system browser improvements, what has been added/improved about it?

Thanks a ton Kyle. You are a great help to us all as we embark on our journey down the BIM highway.

Thanks,
Joe Fields
Active Member
treknip
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎03-05-2008
Message 7 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-18-2008 02:45 PM in reply to: Jarom05
The plumbing portion of the software is useless unless you are using it to design a house. Beyond that, good luck. The folks at Autodesk should be ashamed of themselves for selling such a product. Maybe all the other software works wonderfully. I don't know. I am only interested in the plumbing side of the software. And again, it is useless. How is it that a major software developer can design a piece of software to design plumbing, sell it, and then when it is discovered the software is useless, start a discussion group and ask plumbers to make a wish list of what they woul like the software to do and what should be included with it? I am completely baffled. I do not know how to design a car. Never in my wildest dreams would I make a decision to develope software to design a car and not hire a car designer to help me design the software. But, this seems to be what has happened with the plumbing portion of Revit MEP 2008. Mr. Kyle B, how is it Autodesk is developing this plumbing software without having a master plumber on staff to help you design it? The plumbing portion of this product is pathetic. I can't even get the tutorial to work as advertised. The software doesn't follow code in its design. I did the tutorial and I had 6 options for a layout. Not one was a layout any experienced plumbing engineer would select. The fixtures were connected without P-Traps. Venting was a joke. I don't know how you do things where you are from but, here in Texas, EVERY fixture must be vented. Common vents just don't cut it any more as far as local code goes. The bottom line is this; The plumbing portion of REVIT MEP 2008 isn't even 1% completed for use in the industry.
It is my understanding that BIM has been developed to keep track of every little thing. That means to me that there can be no missing pieces. Good luck on fullfilling that demand. You are years away from offering that capability. I have been reading your discussion for a "Wish List" as far as piping goes. How can you develope a plumbing design software without already knowing what is needed? Here is my wish list, based on the fact that every line, every plumbing fixture, every pipe, every pipe size, every fitting, every possible piece of equipment of every type and material must be accounted for and tagged with information for the software to work as advertised, This is what I need; Pipe of every size, every material and every fitting type of every material known to the industry. I need pipe that can calulate size based on every type of fluid or gas that runs through it. This would include medical gases, compressed air, natural gas, gasoline, diesel fuel, gasoline vapor recovery, Bio-Diesel, Ethenol, all available engine oils, refrigerant, anti-freeze, windshield washer fluid, chassis grease, non-potable water, sanitary sewer vents, storm drain vents, pumped waste water, pumped foundation water, sub soil drainage, pumped lubricants, propane, oily waste, acid waste, corrosive waste, and so on. Equipment needed would include oil interceptors, grease interceptors, water recovery systems, trench drains, every kind of pump you can think of, sewage ejectors, gas meters, gas regulators, every kind of backflow preventer, every kind of valve, every kind of fixture, every possible domestic water heater, every possible type of thermostatic mixing valve. Do you get my point? There are literally thousnds of objects, pipes, equpment and so on to make this software usable. You arent even close. If you want some advice, hire a staff of plumbing engineers/designers to help you get a clue as to what this software needs, and needs to do.
Contributor
gpesc
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎09-11-2007
Message 8 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-19-2008 07:43 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Are there going to be assembly codes assigned to the MEP content that AutoDesk provides? I was very disappointed when informed that the mechanical contractor could not categorize our components because Autodesk did not assign assembly codes to the MEP content that comes with the program. Revit Architecture and Structure have them built in and I don't know why MEP doesn't, hopefully this will be addressed.
Employee
KyleB_Autodesk
Posts: 961
Registered: ‎10-21-2005
Message 9 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-19-2008 07:58 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Unfortunately no.

Kyle B


Kyle Bernhardt
Product Line Manager
Revit Services
Autodesk, Inc.

Contributor
gpesc
Posts: 14
Registered: ‎09-11-2007
Message 10 of 30 (236 Views)

Re: Question for Autodesk (We are all interseted in knowing)

03-19-2008 08:02 AM in reply to: Jarom05
Thanks for your response, your posts are very helpful and I feel that you take our comments seriously. In regards to the assembly codes, is there any reason why they aren't built in to the Autodesk provided content? Also, why wouldn't they be provided with the new release? It would save me alot of time
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