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Plumbing fixtures breaking inconsistently

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Message 1 of 24
jmiller
4372 Views, 23 Replies

Plumbing fixtures breaking inconsistently

I am having issues with my plumbing fixtures breaking inconsistently where piping crosses over them. Some of them break some of them don’t. Just to inform I am using Revit 14 and have copied/monitored in the Arch fixtures into my project. I have yet to identify any factors as to why one fixture will break while the other that is identical in every way won’t. It does not matter to me if they break or not I would just like to find a way to have all of the fixtures behaving the same way.  Has anyone come across this odd behavior? If so were you able to fix it? Any and all help would greatly appreciated.

23 REPLIES 23
Message 2 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: jmiller

I am going to take a couple stabs at this, but it would be easier if you could attach a small portion of your Project as a sample. If you cannot get the file small enough to post, send me a Private Message and I will give you my email address.

 

- Are both of these fully connected systems?

- How was the second created; did you select the first and Copy to the next fixture?

- Can you see any visible difference in a 3D View?

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 3 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: jmiller

Was this ever resolved? I'm having the same problem with Revit 2013. As far as i can tell, everything is set the same as 2012, but all the plumbing fixtures get broken by pipes. 

Message 4 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: HMGZak

Since the OP never responded, I don't know if it was ever resolved on his end. We can still pursue this issue; can you answer the same three questions that I had asked the OP in my first post?

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 5 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: jmiller

Yea, no problem. I should actually preface that with a few things thought, and maybe i should of started a new topic,but i figuted this was the closest thing to my issue i could find.

 

I'm working in Revit 2013, and it seems to act differently than 2012 when it come to breaking fixtures/mechanical equipment(or fill patterns, see below). I'm not having inconsistencies, it's just not working at all.  So file "Hidden Fixture" is from Revit 2013, and despite my transparency being set to 100% on plumbing fixtures, the outline is completely obscured by pipe running over the fixtures. Correct Fixtures is what it looked like in 2012 and 2011.

 

In 2012, the fill pattern and detail lines would get obscured or broken, but the detail item/border of fill region would stay visible. This is extremely important, as now, floor drains and other small fixtures get completely obscured by pipes, where 2011 and 2012 it would at least showed the outline of the fixtures. 

 

I have updated my graphics card and tried on other machines that have different video cards in it. 

I've tries with hardware acceleration both on and off.

My Revit is up to date on patches. 

 

If I create a fill region in on the floor plan, it doesn’t get obscured at all. 

 

 

To answer your questions though (may not apply to me though)

- Are both of these fully connected systems?

Yes, all the parts are part of a system

- How was the second created; did you select the first and Copy to the next fixture?

don’t think this applie so my situation. 

- Can you see any visible difference in a 3D View?

no

 

Thanks in advance, and if I need to start a new topic, just let me know!

Message 6 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: HMGZak

You're correct - those questions don't apply to your situation. This seems to be a change in behavior between Revit 2012 and 2013/2014. I started a new project in both versions, placed a sink, and then ran a pipe over it. In Revit 2013/2014, the lines of the fixture beneath is masked according to the MEP Hidden Lines under Mechanical Settings, whereas in Revit 2012, those same lines are just made halftone. The bottom line is that without a stupidly elaborate solution*, I believe your only option is to adjust the Gap settings under Mechanical Settings.

 

*Stupidly elaborate solution: Open your Plumbing Fixture Family, change the Category to Generic Models, SaveAs the Family as a similar name (maybe add the suffix "GM"), make it Shared, strip the Connectors, open your Plumbing Fixture Family again, load in the Generic Model version, place an instance overlapping the normal geometry, link any necessary parameters from the nested Family to the host Family (i.e. size-defining parameters). That way, when the MEP lines are masked, the half-tone Generic Model Lines still show continuous.

 

AntiBreakingLines.JPG

edit: added image

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 7 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: CoreyDaun

Thanks for the quick response Corey! This change is terrible! Now I’ve got to outline all of our plumbing/mechanical models with generic models, or detail lines in each view…? Thanks Revt…
Message 8 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: jmiller

Corey, I tried the elaborate way, and i cant get the outline of the generic model to show. If you don’t mind doing this one, and I can take a look at it and replicate it out to our other heavily used families, I’d greatly appreciate it! 

Message 9 of 24
jmiller
in reply to: HMGZak

I have not yet to find a solution to this issue nor have I found what I would consider an acceptable workaround. Imbedding fixtures into other fixtures or tracing around the fixtures in the project does not seem like a very efficient way to handel this.

Message 10 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: jmiller


jmiller wrote:

"I have not yet to find a solution to this issue nor have I found what I would consider an acceptable workaround. Imbedding fixtures into other fixtures or tracing around the fixtures in the project does not seem like a very efficient way to handel this."


There are two separate issues in play here, and yes, definitely not a very efficient way! Would you be able to post an example Project file for your issue?

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 11 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: HMGZak


HMGZak wrote:

"Corey, I tried the elaborate way, and i cant get the outline of the generic model to show. If you don’t mind doing this one, and I can take a look at it and replicate it out to our other heavily used families, I’d greatly appreciate it!"


Attached. In this case, your Family is not represented on Plan by actual geometry nor is it parametrically sized, making this pretty easy. So what I did was delete all of the geometry, remove all of the parameters, and delete all but the origin Reference Planes. It is necessary that the Family be marked as Shared under "Family Category and Parameters". This is then loaded into the "real" fixture and placed into the same location. That should be all the work that's needed in this case.

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 12 of 24
Martin__Schmid
in reply to: HMGZak

HMGZak... it doesn't appear that you're comparing apples to apples.... the images appear to be from different datasets, and it is possible that the families were built differently, and/or there are other configuration changes in the project file(s) themselves.. I can only speculate based on the images.  Is there any way you can open the file you created the "Correct Fixtures.JPG" (2011 and 2012) file  in 2013/2014 to show a visual comparison?  Or, show the 2012 version of "Hidden Fixtures.JPG"  (2013)?  Better yet, is there a way you can provide the 2012 versions of the files (or at least a reduced portion of them, just the familes, for example)?

 

I've taken a look at 2012, 2013, and 2014, and I am seeing the same results consistently (see attached 2012-2013-2014.png).  All the families shown are out-of-the-box content... the fixture on the right in the 2013 and 2014 images is the "WC-1-HMG-Floor Mounted.rfa" posted on this thread... its was provided in 2013 format, so obviously couldn't include it when I built the dataset in 2012 (posted here, if you want to take a look).

 

Back to the Original Post... which seems to be a different topic... why the inconsistency, hard to say... but without the OP responding, and providing additional data, may go unresolved (at least, in this thread).

 

 



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 13 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

It's the same family and template, just upgraded to 2013. Forgot to mention in my original post, that transparency is checked in 2012 for the plumbing and the slider is at 100% transparent in 2013. I know it seems like a small issue, but its quite possible to completely lose small fixtures and floor drains on drawings if they are not outlined.

Message 14 of 24
CoreyDaun
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

Thanks, Martin. When I tested this in 2012 before, I was on Detail Level: Fine and was having graphical issues. I disabled "Use Hardware Acceleration" and I am now seeing this correctly, as per your image. Would you be able to add a notation beneath my first paragraph in post #6? I will readily admit a mistake, but I don't like having erroneous information left unchecked.

 

@HMGZak: I believe that the Ghost Surfaces box may be causing the display that you show in your images. This feature was removed in Revit 2013.

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 15 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: CoreyDaun

Hey Corey, I just checked, and that option is not turned on in my graphic display options in 2012. 

Message 16 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

Hi Martin, here's the original 2011, that was upgraded for both the 2012 and 2013. Any help with this is greatly appreciated! 

Message 17 of 24
Martin__Schmid
in reply to: HMGZak

To focus on your primary concern:

 

"I know it seems like a small issue, but its quite possible to completely lose small fixtures and floor drains on drawings if they are not outlined."

 

That's certainly understandable.

 

It is possible that some combination of Hardware Acceleration, video card, and driver version(s) cause different behavior (the grey gapping or no gapping), but the intended behavior is that the fixture is gapped.. no outline, etc. As far as I can tell (with limited testing of the provided family "WC-1-HMG-Wall Hung 2011.rfa"), there has been no change to the intended behavior across 2011 - 2014... all model geometry receives a gap when a pipe crosses over it. See attached "2011-2012-2013-2014.png"... but your hardware configuration have been causing some unexpected (but perhaps desirable) effect.  

 

As far as I am aware (others on the forum may have other ideas), to solution is to nest an annotation family into the fixture family... you can see with the attached "PF With Anno 2011.rfa" that the model geometry is 'gapped', but the annotation is not (see "PF With Nested Anno.png").

 

PF With Nested Anno.png

 

2011-2012-2013-2014.png



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 18 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

Yea, that’s what Corey suggested. Just out of curiosity though; in those pictures, is you transparency box in visibility graphics checked on the plumbing fixtures in the older versions(11 & 12)? I only ask because we have many machines, with varying hardware and drivers, and they all acted the same in 2011 and 2012.

Message 19 of 24
Martin__Schmid
in reply to: HMGZak

You can take a look... the files are here: https://autodesk.app.box.com/s/y4xivj0zxjxu6r7zmf8j

 

PF Test.rvt is the 2011 file (and it's associated Link)... you can check to see if you have a different result than I do (from my image in prior post).



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 20 of 24
HMGZak
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

Yea, your transparency was not turned on of plumbing fixtures. I get the expected results on the earlier versions(11 & 12) when transparency is enabled. 2014 is the same as 2013, but i can only upload 3 attachments. 

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