Panelboard MCB Rating Parameter

[jim.overholtzer]

This a problem that has existed for many years.

When is the MCB Rating Parameter (system Parameter) going to be changed from a Type Parameter to a Instance Parameter?

In the Panelboard families, the Mains parameter is a Type Parameter and is used to differentiate between the different sizes of Main Busses, the MCB Rating which is also a type Parameter is often different that the Mains rating requiring you to make a different type for each combination of these parameters that you are using.

[ltadachi]

I don't know. we've been waiting since the beginning.

The advice I've received is to not discuss it and instead bypass it by implementing your own shared parameters.

I was thinking about whether it's worth it to utilize the one as the other and just switch the labels. 

[CoreyDaun]

Yep, this has been a noted issue for a while, and you're not alone in your wait. There have been a couple of threads on this topic, but I don't have much faith that this will be addressed anytime soon. Below is a statement that is frequently posted by Autodesk Product Support personnel here, and I suggest reporting this issue here and visiting the Wish List over at AUGI.com to press this issue.

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Autodesk Product Support

"The following link is setup for you to submit feature requests, or feedback, directly to our Development group:"

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=1109794

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jomazq wrote:

"I don't know. we've been waiting since the beginning.
The advice I've received is to not discuss it and instead bypass it by implementing your own shared parameters..."

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Hello, again! If you're referring to the my response in your previous post about this, I didn't mean to imply not to discuss it - I just said that discussing it incessantly would likely do no good, and the better route to take would be to report this using the link above and to participate in the AUGI Wish List. The occasional discussions are fine, but they are not going to make any difference with Autodesk.

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jomazq wrote:

"...I was thinking about whether it's worth it to utilize the one as the other and just switch the labels."

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The way I have it set up now, I have basically done that. I create two Shared Parameters for MCB and Mains which then drive the opposite System Parameter.

[Alaaeldin_Alsahli · Accepted solution]

Here is the solution to your problem

https://chronicle.autodesk.com/Main/Details/0b8160d1-0a28-4863-81dd-1b6b58ce87a1

[jim.overholtzer]

Thank you for coming up with a way around this problem.

Maybe not a solution, but close enough if you ask me.

Can you explain why changing the family to the Generic Model Category allows you to change the type of parameter from type to Instance?

[nmulder34]

I have been using this solution over the last year. However, it is still a workaround, and it still has it's limitations. I would like to see a permanent fix to this.

First, these default parameters provided under the electrical equipment category (Mains Type, MCB Rating, Mains, SubFeed Lugs, Neutral Bus, Ground Bus) should be able to be changed to instance or type. I would argue this is user preference on how they want to set up their families for preferred workflow.

Second, while changing the family category temporarily allows you to get around this issue it presents its own problems. Once changed, all these parameters, with the exception of 'Mains' DO NOT work in a panelboard schedule. For whatever reason a panelboard template/schedule will only 'honor' the value of these parameters if they are left as they were OOTB as type parameters, except for 'Mains' (OOTB it is an instance parameter -  it can be changed to a type parameter and the panelboard will still 'honor' it). I have ultimately been forced to use shared parameters, which I have 'mapped' to the OOTB parameters (I do this so users don't get confused on what parameter to us, the OOTB parameters have values in case Revit 'needs' them for calculations somewhere, and so the parameters are equal to the used shared parameters and can't be changed). I then use the shared parameters in my panelboards.

My bottom line point is this: workflow. If a user wants the MCB Rating to be instance and Mains Type to be instance this should be possible. My personal preferred workflow for a 120/208 panel is this: Mains Type, MCB Rating, Mains, SubFeed Lugs, Neutral Bus, and Ground Bus should all be instance (I can see the argument for Mains to be type). However, none of these values change the physical size or 'type' of a 120/208 panel and it is easier as a designer to make these changes in a panelboard schedule than to have to change the type of a family to get the desired value. A 120/208V panel can be 100A, 150A MCB, subfeed lug, etc. - a family type is not needed for all these scenarios, which type parameters for these values force.

[rticwolf]

The video helped to change the MCB Rating, but how do you get it to show up in the Panel Schedule now?

[nmulder34]

Read my post above. Only the 'Mains' parameter, once changed, will work in a panelboard schedule. All others only work if they remain as they are set OOTB, either type or instance. The only solution is to institute shared parameters set to equal the corresponding value in the formula column and have your panelschedule read those shared parameters. The extra step to this method is that the shared parameters need to be added to the project as project parameters in order for the panel schedules/templates to 'see' them. Once a template is set the shared parameters as project parameters can be removed if you don't like them cluttering up the list of project parameters and being added to all pieces of electrical equipment.

Love Revit, but this needs fixing!!!

[ltadachi]

The cost for them to change this relationship is miniscule compared to the benefit of the community. I'm flabberghasted as to why this isn't right. 

[glenbob305]

I just ran into this today.  Autodesk you owe me several hours of my life back. 

[MuirEng]

I'm orbiting around this issue now... Mostly I just want to be able to set a panel to MLO and not have the then non existing MCB appear in the panel schedule. I get calls from contractors wanting to know which is right, MLO or breaker? I would settle for entering 0 for the MCB but Revit, oh I hate you sometimes... won't allow this.

I was searching for a workaround and came across this thread, and now I realize that the MCB parameter is type, not instance. WTF? That is really stupid!

I think my path forward is to add a new text parameter ME_PanelMainBreaker, used by user to enter the MCB if there is one, and "MLO" if there is not. This will be displayed in the PB schedule. What do you think?

Brian

p.s. (if you care, sign up for the Revit Electrical User Group)

[MuirEng]

oh crap. Foiled again. Cannot add shared parameter in a PB schedule field. DOH!

hmm, is there a way to conditional format the MCB rating field so it doesn't show at all if Mains Type is MLO?

double crap. No!

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/revit-mep/conditional-formats-in-panel-schedules/td-p/5276129

what's on TV?

[ltadachi]

My "solution" to this problem is to treat the one as the other. I use the MCB type parameter for my Mains, and I swap the labels in the panel schedules.

On certain jobs, I Create seperate Panel schedules for MCB equipped panel boards, versus MLO.

In order to get 0 Amps in the field - use a small enough decimal so that revit will round down. I think 0.01A works.

I hope this helps. 

I'm still bitter. Largely; Revit works... but, fix what's broken. 

[MuirEng]

Hey, I had the same idea just now. I made a new PB schedule with suffix _MLO and then nuked the MCB rating parameter in the schedule, replaced with "None". It is pretty quick to swap schedule templates so I think I can live with this as a solution.

thanks for posting back.

[stever66]

I just put a couple of text fields in the panel schedule template for Ampacity and MLO or MCB.

i don't see why you would need a parameter for "main lug only" or " main breaker" .  Maybe if you have some add on that automatically creates one lines?

and you can always add an instance parameter to the panel family as an alternative.  

Either work ore fine for me.

[MuirEng]

In the end I did not add any parameters, mainly since I discovered I can't actually display shared parameters in the PB schedule. My main goal was to simply shut down display of the MCB value for MLO panels, and the two template trick is something I am reasonably content with. However, one day I  am going to run into this problem where MCB is a type parameter and my project will need different main breaker ratings in a couple of similar panels...

When you say you added a text parameter to your schedule, how did you do this? The only options available when adding a parameter into a PB field are "electrical equipment", and as I understand it Revit uses only built in parameters here, and "project information", which would be a type parameter constant over the project and therefore quite useless.

[stever66]

Not a text parameter - just plain old text.   Cells in the panel schedules that don't have any text or parameters entered are editable for each panel.

So just go to the "edit panel schedules", and select the cell beside the "mains type".  On the ribbon panel there is an option for "remove parameter".  Press that.  Then you have an empty cell beside the "Mains Type" text.

Once you select a panel, and "create schedule" you can just type MLO or MCB in the empty cell.

[nmulder34]

As the numerous comments suggest, there are several workarounds. I have somewhat 'moved on' from the MEP world and am currently working for a security and technology consulting firm, which presents its own Revit challenges! Anyway, I am not in panelboard schedules everyday like I used to be, so this is from memory.

To get a shared parameter to be available in a panelboard schedule, the shared parameter has to be added BOTH to the family AND the project. Once the panelboard schedule template is configured as desired, the shared parameter as a project parameter can actually be removed from the project, though it is not necessary. I also did the 'edit family, change category to generic model, change desired type parameters to instance, change category back to elecitrical equipment' workaround. Nothing about this is exactly consistent behavior from the software, more like exploiting a bug.

That was the path I took, mostly because I thought it would be more straightforward for all users. A BIM purist might argue that all pertinent information should be contained in the family; schedules and tags are simply reporting that info (and if exported to Navis or something that info is retained). If none of the above is a concern for you I say go with whatever works best for you. I think MLO and MCB templates are a good option, you just have to remember to change them if you change the family. I was cautious about adding text to panel schedules b/c if a template is changed or re-applied, I believe text is lost, no?

[aleonardCCK9L]

Make a MLO panel schedule template and remove the MCB part of that template.  Use this template for MLO panels.  I spent an afternoon clicking buttons trying to get the MCB to go away.  I fixed the template in 30 seconds.  As much as my employer pays for this software one would think it would be able to have this feature.  I guess they'll have to pay extra for it.  Can't recoup the loss of me wasting my time trying to figure out this madness either.

[majorminotaur5]

For what it is worth to people, my work flow has always been to duplicate type and have each type be a specific instance of a panelboard. I've done this because 1.) its easier to find in a project if you lose it (right click in project browser and 'select all in project' and 2.) you can't have two panels of the same name.

Perhaps not the greatest of reasons...but because of this I've never ran into the fact that MCB is a type parameter because it's never mattered to me. It's of course deeply concerning to me that this problem exists, but of course par for the course for electrical content. As soon as you start to look under the hood a bit you find a confused jumble of hardcoded exceptions to the rules of revit.

I HAVE run into the problem if you EVER fill in the MCB rating...that box can never go empty again. Yes, you can enter 0.01A and have it round down to 0...but then you have some panels that show "MCB:      " and some "MCB: 0A". Its annoyingly inconsistant.