Control Panels?

[smbrennan]

I am experimenting/planning on making a workflow for lighting control systems (such as Crestron, Lutron, or a basic Relay panel). Each fixture would have the following Electrical Connectors:

1. Power
2. Switch
3. Control

The Power is simple, and it looks like the Switch is Automatically associated with Light Fixtures. I was able to easily insert an Electrical Control Connector. However, my problem is trying to assign that Control Element to a piece of equipment. I can't figure out how to assign a panel to the control "circuit."

I'm sure it's something easy that I'm missing, but what is it? Has anyone attempted this?

Thanks in advance.

[CoreyDaun]

You are kind of going beyond the current capabilities of Revit; it is still flawed and lacking in the Electrical discipline.

1. Power

You shouldn't run into any problems until you have multi-ballast fixtures that have to be routed to two separate sources. With a Light Fixture Tag, one cannot access the Parameters from any of the Secondary Connectors, so the information cannot be directly reported. The current work-around is to create a tiny piece of Wire for the Secondary Connector and then use a Wire Tag to report the circuit/panel information. My current experiment is to create the ballasts as nested, Shared Families and circuit those in lieu of the actual Light Fixture element, since in Revit 2014 the Shared components can be Circuited/Tagged as independent elements.

2. Switch

I have not delved into Revit 2015 yet, but as of 2014, Revit is still incapable of creating a 3W or 4W switch system. Revit simply does not allow one to assign more than one Light Switch to a given Switch System. This forces the user to manually monitor and control the Switch ID (and other data) for the additional Switches.

3. Control

As I stated above, this is going beyond Revit's means, so a little creativity is needed here. I did not invest a ton of time into finding a solution to this in the past, but I did generate some Relay Schedules by adding Shared Parameters to and Scheduling the Switch Systems, since those can pull both the Switch ID and Circuit Numbers. Aside from that, I don't really have any more useful information on this.

Edit:

In regards to using the Control type Electrical Connector, you can only connect the "non-power" Circuits to Electrical Equipment that is of the Part Type: Other Panel. This can be set in the Family Editor under the Family Category and Parameters dialog. This will, however, make it ineligible for hosting Power Circuits.

[smbrennan]

I never thought of dual-balast fixtures. I know we install them all the time - but I'm just now planning for Family/Standard/Template Development. I am not sure about 2015, but I thought you couldn't circuit nested families? 

Your comment about switches is Interesting. Especially considering that the out of the box content contains a 3-way, 4-way, and other switch families/types, LOADED into the default electrical template. What kind of bait and switch is this anyway?

As for Controls, to make basic understanding, that would work. I (think I) want to control the power circuit separate from the control circuit anyway. For something as simple as a dedicated relay planel, I've accomplished assigning different lights to different "Relays." Different lights are also part of different Switches. Now, I just need to figure out if I can tag the Control Circuit Separately from the Electrical Circuit. But, as you said, that's because Revit doesn't currently allow secondary connectors to be tagged.

[CoreyDaun]

You can Circuit/Tag/Schedule nested Families as long as they are Shared, which is designated in the Family Editor under Family Category and Parameters. In the Project environment, you select the Shared Nested Component by hovering the cursor over it and then pressing TAB until the desired sub-component is highlighted, and then click to select. As long as the nested Family has an Electrical Connector, it can be circuited as an independent element.

The switches are a pain, and the OOTB 3W and 4W switches simply contain a "3" or "4" Annotation Label. Another annoyance is dual-switching. You can easily design a Family for a multi-gang light switch, but it will still only be counted as a single switch element in the Revit Project. What I have done to remedy this is to create a mutli-gang switch Family and then make the additional annotation symbols separate Nested Shared Components so I can select them within the Family and designate the nested element as the Switch. This will serve to retain the correct geometry and permit the switch effectively host multiple Switch Systems. This kind of work-around should not be necessary, as these are very basic techniques to electrical design.

[smbrennan]

The nesting does propose a "global" workaround. I work for a contractor, so we'll often receive files from a firm who has already done the design work. Not knowing how they are working with their controls and other low-voltage elements, I can see it being feasible to create a simple 1" cube family for various electrical connections, whether it's Power, Data, Control, Fire Alarm, etc. Then, once we receive their project, nest that within their family, and import/recreate our own schedules that draws the information we require. Again - it's hard to estimate how they're handling it (I have started talking to the BIM Manager for one firm that we install a lot of designs for, and I know he's happy to share information).

Hell, now that I think of it - maybe that's the "best practice" for all elements that require an Electrical Connector. Don't place it directly within the family, but nest and share it. Have you thought about that? Are there any pros and cons that you know of to this approach?

[smbrennan]

Will a nested family with Shared Instance Parameters still be Instance within a project, or just within the family?

For example, lets say that because of the scheduling/tagging capabilities, I decide to nix the Control Connectors, and create a 1" cube with shared parameters specific for Lighting Control Systems. Parameters would be by Instance, and include Panel, Relay #, & Area/Zone. I load that into a light fixture. That light fixture is loaded into a project. Will I then be able to modify the instance parameters listed, when I select an individual light fixture instance?

I am going to test this, but in the event someone reads and responds quicker than I find an answer, then it saves me a bit of time.

[CoreyDaun]

smbrennan85 wrote:

"The nesting does propose a "global" workaround. I work for a contractor, so we'll often receive files from a firm who has already done the design work. Not knowing how they are working with their controls and other low-voltage elements, I can see it being feasible to create a simple 1" cube family for various electrical connections, whether it's Power, Data, Control, Fire Alarm, etc. Then, once we receive their project, nest that within their family, and import/recreate our own schedules that draws the information we require. Again - it's hard to estimate how they're handling it (I have started talking to the BIM Manager for one firm that we install a lot of designs for, and I know he's happy to share information).

Hell, now that I think of it - maybe that's the "best practice" for all elements that require an Electrical Connector. Don't place it directly within the family, but nest and share it. Have you thought about that? Are there any pros and cons that you know of to this approach?"

---

That could work, but that's a whole lot of work to edit each Family and load in your special Connector Family. You would also have to link the driving parameters in the host family to your nested Family so it is properly driven. In fact, this example should answer your second post, too.

Say an original Light Fixture Family has a "Electrical Load" Parameter which drives the Apparent Load in the Electrical Connector. Now, you add your special Shared Family to this Family with your a Shared Instance Parameter "Elec_Load". If you leave it as is and reload it back into the Project, you will be able to see your "Elec_Load" Parameter in your nested Family, but you will NOT be able to change it - the only Parameters that can be changed in this way are "Comments" and "Mark". The value of this Parameter will have to be controlled through the Family, meaning that you will have to either link your nested Parameter ("Elec_Load") to the driving Parameter in the host Family ("Electrical Load"), or add your Shared Parameter to the host and link the nested one to that. Either way, though, the nested Instance Parameters will behave like any other Instance Parameters, unless they are linked to a Type Parameter.

[smbrennan]

Just to publically answer my own question: No, a nested family does not natively carry shared instance parameters through to the project. I did, however, manage to "link" the shared parameters. I had to load the shared parameters into the 1" cube, and load that family into the fixture family. I then added the shared parameters to the family itself, and within the properties of the cube, I linked the shared parameter to itself. 

While it worked in this application, it's redudant and not necessary. It may have some application, but right now I can't forsee what that applicaton may be.

[smbrennan]

Thanks for that elaborate description. It confirms the workflow I thought of, but you also mentioned (just as I did) how tedious the process may be. It may be better just to load the shared instance parameters directly into the family.

[dtiemeyer]

Corey,

Do you have a multi-gang multi-switch box working (in regards to being able to switch mulitiple lighting circuits from one 3 or 4 gang lighting device object)?

If so, would you post an example of this family?

BTW, thanks for all your activity on the Revit MEP board. I'm not sure if Autodesk is paying you, but they should be!

Dustin

[nichesound]

Hi

I have been doing other stuff for the last eight or nine years for a company not electrical design related, and am looking to get back into the electrical design portion of my resume.  I am really amazed at what Revit MEP can't do for simple lighting circuits.  Back in 2003 I had worked for a company that developed a product for electrical design which is light years ahead of any thing autodesk has, and the problem with that, is everyone recognizes this name AucoCAD, and their product is more word of mouth. 

I am not sure where I will end up, but check out Design Master for Electrical from Robison Engineering in Lynnwood WA...they have a 30 day demo that if you are not familiar with, will enlighten you and your company.  If I find that this Revit MEP of which I am considering now, since all the companies out there seem to ask if you have this background, is not up to my liking, I am going to purchase a license and use DM and find a company that is willing to go with it.

Wow, A/B circuit and 3/4 way switching should not be this hard!!

Johnne in Seattle