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Add ceilings to copy/monitor

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Message 1 of 22
jean-fredericmonod3227
7434 Views, 21 Replies

Add ceilings to copy/monitor

MEP needs to share the ceilings in linked models. This is so ceiling based fixtures can be used, lights and diffusers can cut the ceiling ... etc When linking MEP lights back to the architecture model, no light shows in renderings because the light fixtures don't cut the ceiling. Do I really need to go back and cut all those holes out by hand ?
21 REPLIES 21
Message 2 of 22

Revit actually does cut the ceilings.  I ran into this problem way back.  One or two things is happening.  You aren't set to Hidden as your Visual style.  Or your fixtures are set to the exact height of the ceiling, so they don't actually cut the ceiling plane.  To fix the second of the problems change the mounting height in your family to be - 1/8" , then you will see it cut the ceilings. 

Message 3 of 22
asommer
in reply to: CrazedEngineer

2010?  The only way the lights will "CUT" the ceiling is if the architect places a fixture hosted to the ceiling (in the arch model).  If you are MEP and "Linking" in the arch file, the lights will not cut the ceiling, even when you host them to it.

 

The -1/8" move down will show the fixture, but the light output will still be muffled by the ceiling (still there).  If you only want to show the fixture in the rendering, the move will work, but you will have to modify every family type individually.  Pick your poison.

 

In 2011, ceilings can be copy/monitored, so you basically have an actual "Ceiling" instead of a face, and it will be cut by your light.  Diffusers should work in the same manner.

Message 4 of 22

These are two drafts that I have done, with everything in other models and nothing is Copy/monitored.  I apologize they are generic downlight families with factory ies files set to them. 

 

The difference may be where the light sources is set.  In the image with the down lights I had trouble with those ones because I initialy set the light source on the inside of the glass instead of the bottom so the fixture was obstructing itself.  So I am not sure why it isn't working for you guys.

 

Message 5 of 22
asommer
in reply to: CrazedEngineer

Ya, that's what we had to do too (put the light source at the lens).  There is a trick to the .ies files you get from a manufacturer, they already factor in the "shape" of the fixture and have adjusted the spread and intensity.  We had created some complex lights, thinking that it would give us an accurate representation of what it looks like using the renderings, but our electrical people don't trust it, because they can't see the Photometric map to compare.  We don't have IES-VE to look at this, I wish it was included.

Message 6 of 22

My 2 cents:

 

  • "Hosted Ceiling Based" Lighting Fixture Families CAN NOT be placed on Ceilings that are in LINKED MODELS.
     
  • "Face Based" Lighting Fixture Families CAN be placed on Ceilings that are in LINKED MODELS, BUT DO NOT CUT (can't cut linked geometry). Thus, recessed parabolics and down-lights disappear above the ceiling.
     
  • WORKAROUND: Make your Architect copy/monitor your lights so they cut into the ceiling. Note: Architect must re-host the light fixture to the ceiling AFTER copy/monitoring in order for this to work. This will be a huge pain, especially for large buildings (only tested with Revit 2012). 

  • SOLUTION: Allow ceilings to be copy/monitored.

I have been using Revit MEP for 4 years now and this has to be one of the most infuriating problems I come up against.

 

We're a tech-savvy MEP firm, and we usually do lighting designs ourselves. In talks I've had with Autodesk, they seem to think that the Architect drives which light fixtures are to be used almost exclusively. This is not the case, in reality, MEP firms have a very active roll in selecting light fixtures.

 

We would love to generate renderings and host our light fixture families so they cut, but, currently, that is not possible.

 

Repost, and kudos this post, and keep this thread alive if you want to see this happen in Revit 2013.

____________________________________________________
Please give kudos to the MEP Wish List ideas you like, as this will help the Revit development team prioritize functionality additions!
Message 7 of 22
kevlar016
in reply to: adam.jw

Lets make it happen! I'm tired of Revit MEP being the Windows Vista of the BIM world. Fix the issues you already have before you start creating next years release!

Message 8 of 22
jimsmith8
in reply to: adam.jw

I am a professional electrical engineer and this issue is a real headache. We usually spec the light fixtures and add the light fixtures to our models based on families provided by the manufacturers. More and more manufacturers are getting on the BIM bandwagon and producing quality 3D representations but when we render the drawing, the fixtures are not visible. It certainly would be nice if this gets included in the next rev.

Message 9 of 22
CoreyDaun
in reply to: adam.jw

Agreed. I'm from a MEP firm that controls and designs the lighting layouts 97.163% of the time, since the architects designs the layouts almost purely on aesthetics. This would be a major function for us. We also primarily select and specify the fixture types.

 

However, we control the ceiling grids while architect always maintains control of the ceiling types. Therefore they are often in a state of constant fluctuation. The Coordination Reviewꜝ should be able to apply the changes to these ceilings with a "Modify Type" or similar action to improve the relationship's efficiency. It would have to be able to do this without changing the grid alignments.

 

The stability of the Light Fixtures and their host will need to be improved, most notably for the change between Generic Ceilings and Compound Ceilings as this change wreaks havoc on recessed lights. Some of our architectural friends like to use these as placeholders or whatever and then change them to Compound Ceilings later.

 

 ꜝ I inserted a Security Device into a linked model and then Copy/monitored it in the host project. When I changed its type in the linked file and performed a Coordination Review, I only get the options to "Postpone", "Reject", or "Accept difference".

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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Message 10 of 22
brenden.haskins
in reply to: CoreyDaun

I would love to see this feature as well.

 

We have the same problem with our diffusers. If we could copy/monitor a ceiling, then host our diffusers on it, it would really simplify coordination if/when a ceiling hight changes. Plus, since the diffuser would be cutting the ceiling, we could make more accurate rendings.

Message 11 of 22
adam.jw
in reply to: brenden.haskins

Here's a meme I created related to our troubles:

 

 

I think it sums it up quite nicely.

 

____________________________________________________
Please give kudos to the MEP Wish List ideas you like, as this will help the Revit development team prioritize functionality additions!
Message 12 of 22
CoreyDaun
in reply to: adam.jw

I guess you have to admire his zeal. I would be afraid, had he a pitchfork to accompany his torch. (Or maybe a Q-Tip if I am mistaken...)

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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⁞|⁞ Please use Mark Solutions!.Accept as Solution and Give Kudos!Give Kudos as appropriate to further enhance these forums. Thank you!
Message 13 of 22
asommer
in reply to: adam.jw

He's Pointing at the Architect's ceilings.  Tell'em!

 

We need the ceilings to Copy/Monitor too.

Message 14 of 22
CoreyDaun
in reply to: adam.jw

Our architectural friends have come to the realization that they must lower their ceilings in a couple of major rooms to accommodate the existence of our obtrusive equipment. It is easy enough to change these few rooms, but while investigating, I found that they had changed many other ceilings (mostly heights, but a couple types as well). Now we have a coordination issue or two, but I don't know if that would have been caught had they not changed the major ceilings. I'd like to think it would've been, but if the ceilings were Copy/Monitored...

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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⁞|⁞ Please use Mark Solutions!.Accept as Solution and Give Kudos!Give Kudos as appropriate to further enhance these forums. Thank you!
Message 15 of 22
adam.jw
in reply to: CoreyDaun

...I see what you did there. Let's bump this thread some more. Get it to the top again.

____________________________________________________
Please give kudos to the MEP Wish List ideas you like, as this will help the Revit development team prioritize functionality additions!
Message 16 of 22

Yes this is a big problem with the ceilings.

 

Also why are lighting families upside down?

Message 17 of 22
CoreyDaun
in reply to: brian.breslin

I assume your light fixture families are face-based?

 

If hosting to a ceiling, they are probably just hosting to the top face of the ceiling, instead of the bottom. This seems to be common with Generic Ceilings. To flip the fixture, click on the 'Flip Work Plane' icon that appears when the element is selected.

 

If hosting to a Reference Plane, the direction in which the Reference Plane is drawn (L to R, R to L) determines which side the fixtures will be on. You will want to draw it RIGHT to LEFT in order to get fixture to mount on the bottom of the plane.

Corey D.                                                                                                                  ADSK_Logo_EE_2013.png    AutoCAD 2014 User  Revit 2014 User
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⁞|⁞ Please use Mark Solutions!.Accept as Solution and Give Kudos!Give Kudos as appropriate to further enhance these forums. Thank you!
Message 18 of 22
brian.breslin
in reply to: CoreyDaun

thanks,

 

Good info to know that, we have been using ref. planes for angled ceiling, so will try going right to left next time.

 

Message 19 of 22
adam.jw
in reply to: brian.breslin

Just a humble bump.

 

We need this. Desperately. It would make our lives so much cleaner us MEP consultants that do the bulk of the lighting design for a project (we pick the luminaires, do the calcs, and visualizations).

 

Having to create a rendering model and not being coordinated with the Architect is a real pain.

 

If we could copy-monitor ceilings (and the Architect in turn monitors our copied ceiling against their original one) we could truly coordinate bi-directionally.

 

So if we host to the copy-monitored ceiling and cut into it, the Architect is prompted the next time they reload their model that the ceiling has been cut (sketch is missing, I believe is the warning), and they can in turn cut their ceiling thus revealing our fixtures.

 

I can't think of a reason why this hasn't been implemented, when I can copy monitor floors and walls why can I not copy-monitor ceilings?

 

I would love a real reason why this functionality has remained absent for 3 version cycles. Are the mechanics involved with implementing it exteremly difficult? Is it because ceilings can be sloped? What gives?

 

It just drives me nuts.

____________________________________________________
Please give kudos to the MEP Wish List ideas you like, as this will help the Revit development team prioritize functionality additions!
Message 20 of 22
brian.breslin
in reply to: adam.jw

Yes, we have had problems with this too, lights become un hosted when we update a linked model from architect and he has moved his ceilings.

 

Also looking at the 2d plan you cannot tell so our engineers are missing them.

 

If ceilings were copy monitored this would sort this problem easy.

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