What's your favorite way to apply finishes?

[stgauss]

Hello,

I recently came across the following situation. Structural department sent along their structural model. Great. Now comes the interesting part... incorporating ceilings and finishes and everything else, based on the final structural elements.

What the architectural department did, is what's enclosed. They took the structural model (grey), linked it, and started drawing and overlaying 3mm thick walls (orange) next to every wall in that model. Then they renamed the type "mortar", "paint", whatever. In the hallways (white) they created 3mm floor slabs which they named "tile".

I guess it´s a way to do it. Only they had to basically redraw the entire building model in 3mm thickness. I figure there's gotta be a better way to get paint and flooring on there. One way that comes to mind is to simply take the structural model, alter it, and using wall structure put in the wall finishes. Same thing with the tile, you use the floor structure. Then what's left unfinished (beams, columns, stairs, etc) you simply use the apply paint tool to finish up. 

Another way that comes to mind is to use apply paint on everything, and go element by element painting in your finishes. 

So, what's your favorite way to handle this situation? Or, what's the most recommendable way to handle it? Is there really any reason to start redrawing walls and overlaying them on the structural model for finish work?

[cbcarch]

I'm an advocate for building the model(s) like they get built on the jobsite.

1. Struct. Model

2. Arch. Shell/Core

3. Interiors

4. MEP

5. FP

etc.

Linked model setup in Revit.

2 and 3 can be combined; sometimes Elec. is also live inside Arch.

Finishes are in either Arch or separate Interior Model. Floors, Ceilings, even Paint Finishes are modeled.

Material Take-off Schedules for Qty. and Product Info.

DO NOT use Split-Face and Paint to apply finishes, except perhaps only for quick schematic design studies--not Con Docs.

Although it seems fast and easy--it falls apart when wall joins are edited--Painted surfaces get deleted,

casuing a lot of re-work and frustration/wated effort.

[rosskirby]

I will second what Cliff said.  You'll save yourself tons of time and heartburn in the long run if you just model it how it will be built.  Once you get used to it, you'll find it takes less time to do it that way than with some convoluted workaround, and in the end, you'll understand more about how buildings are put together, which will make using Revit easier to understand, and so on.

[Seychellian]

Is there another thread that more comprehensively discusses this question?

Creating thin skins for wall finishes and floor finishes seems like a really odd way to manage the workflow to me. However it seems like the only way of doing it for things like applying scheduled finishes to structural beams and columns. As a new Revit user I am really struggling with this methodology. Having to go through the structural model and create skins around every element then manage the way that they join with one another is laborious to say the least.

I appreciate any advice people can pass on regarding this.

[barthbradley]

It's an interesting workflow; akin to dividing building model elements into Parts. It sounds like the Architect is adding to his own work, which he has received back from the Structural Engineer.  

...or perhaps, that is all the Architect is contracted to do; facade and finishes for an existing structure.  

[DEVR2098]

Adding extra "Skins" for finished surfaces is certainly not as efficient as building the surface material into the family. It causes complications with openings etc but its sometimes unavoidable. For example, In the case of a renovation where you removing old tiles and replacing them with new ones, your demolition plan and new works plan wont read properly unless you take the "Skins" approach.  Building phases into the file will also work better.

I guess my advice would be only to use "Skins" if a material is changing as part of the building process.  You can fudge a new coat of paint by overriding its description in the schedule.

[Seychellian]

So how do you handle the fact that you cant have element assemblies in structural components like beams and columns so that things like plastered finishes continue cleanly from architectural walls over faces of beams and connected columns? 

[DEVR2098]

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@Anonymous wrote:

It's an interesting workflow; akin to dividing building model elements into Parts. It sounds like the Architect is adding to his own work, which he has received back from the Structural Engineer.  

...or perhaps, that is all the Architect is contracted to do; facade and finishes for an existing structure.  

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That would be the work of the interior designer. Lol, I am a building designer and  I've come to the conclusion that our best function is working out the brief, making sure the job is compliant (which is usually corrected by the building surveyor), liaising with the client and managing the paperwork. I mean, how should I tell a 3rd generation tradesman that learned from his father and grandfather how to apply a particular finish?

Sure I've got an ego and my work is "brilliant" (in my mind anyway), but you got to get real sometimes.

[DEVR2098]

*Edit* Sorry I didn't get where you were coming from. A composite element would do better in those situations after you fiddle with the different Join methods.  Whenever I'm having troubles like these  the "Disallow Join" toggle on the end of a drawn object can clean up many problems. For plaster around a column, square set to a plaster ceiling make an opening in the ceiling just above the column. If the sectional detail for a call-out  looks wrong use an annotation region with an invisible edge to hide the incorrect lines. Just an idea. However, I think winging it has a lot going for it, or you will go mad trying to accurately describe the entire project down to the most minute detail.

[ToanDN]

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@Seychellian wrote:

So how do you handle the fact that you cant have element assemblies in structural components like beams and columns so that things like plastered finishes continue cleanly from architectural walls over faces of beams and connected columns? 

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Revit was created in the US, where the responsibility of one discipline distinct very clearly from the others.  Structural scope never covers things like plaster finishes as per you example.  If you choose to use Revit, keep it in mind so you can adapt your workflow and modeling strategy that utilizes the program best. 

As you specific question, create the finishes separately from the structure elements so that they can join with the architectural finishes.

[DEVR2098]

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@ToanDN wrote:

 ....If you choose to use Revit, keep it in mind so you can adapt your workflow and modeling strategy that utilizes the program best..... 

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Kudos and IMO the best piece of advice here 

[barthbradley]

Look guys, the author of this thread has got a point; the Architect is MODELING concrete sealer for Christ’s sakes! I think a 5150 (involuntary psychiatric hold) is warranted here. You with me? 

[barthbradley]

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ToanDN wrote:

If you choose to use Revit, keep it in mind so you can adapt your workflow and modeling strategy that utilizes the program best. 

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I thought you adapt to your employer's workflow, otherwise you don't stay employed. It's the boss that knows "best". No? 

[ToanDN]

No. The boss knows better about project/client/budget/employee managements, which including not micro managing employees who know better in the field of modelling.

[barthbradley]

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@ToanDN wrote:
No. The boss knows better about project/client/budget/employee managements, which including not micro managing employees who know better in the field of modelling.

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You obviously live in a dream job, @ToanDN. Good for you. Out of curiosity: has your employer won you over to his way of thinking, or do you just blow him off and do things your way (i.e. the "proper way")? 

[ToanDN]

None of my employers tell their employees how to draw in AutoCAD or model in Revit. It is my job.

[DEVR2098]

This is DEVR2098's doctor. We apologise that he managed to make is way into the admin centre to post these massages. He is now safely sedated but wanted you to know that

a) His opinions are only just that.

b) There are no wrong ways to do Revit

c) Any advice offered is made with good intentions

d: Patron XO incendio is an amusing drink to serve your unsuspecting dinner guests.

Please resume your regular hair splitting.

[barthbradley]

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@ToanDN wrote:

None of my employers tell their employees how to draw in AutoCAD or model in Revit. It is my job.

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@ToanDN, the author of this thread is trying to understand a particular workflow - not the work itself. The author is questioning why the Architect is modeling wall sealant. It's a valid question. Is there a better workflow? Perhaps; perhaps not. My point is simply that it's the Architect's own workflow; the way that he "utilizes the program best". 

[ToanDN]

I wasn't replying to the author.