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Wall based Family templates - Placement Side confusion

17 REPLIES 17
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Message 1 of 18
spacefab
5229 Views, 17 Replies

Wall based Family templates - Placement Side confusion

When i start a new wallbased family from any of the provided wallbased templates (metric), i find it very confusing that the "placement" side i shown as the "back" side on the 3D viewcube when in a 3d-view.

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Also - when you create an extrusion directly on the placement side in the placement-elevation view, it extrudes backwards "into" the wall, unless you give the extrusion a negative value (?).

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Seems as if somethings has been flipped incorrectly or am i missing something completely here?

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(Some of the older updated families like the wallbased "3d-urinal", doesnt have this flipped placement side)

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Can anybody enlighten me on this issue ....?

17 REPLIES 17
Message 2 of 18
IMCornish
in reply to: spacefab

Why aren't the Autodesk gurus responding to this one?  I agree entirely with everything that has been said by you since I get totally confused by this issue also.  Intuitively the Placement Side is the side that you are applying the object to so that anything proud of that surface should have a positive value.

Lets hope someone replies soon!

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 3 of 18
IMCornish
in reply to: spacefab

Over two months later and still no response!  Why?  Another related issue is the subject of wall based light fittings, which compounds the confusion since the template shows the 'light source' on the 'placement side' which makes sense and seems to justify the previous posts? 

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 4 of 18
Alfredo_Medina
in reply to: IMCornish

The wall-based family works as "expected" only when you place the family in a floor plan view. But, most of the times, we need to place the wall-based family in elevation view. This is the case when it does not work as we expect. But, knowing this behaviour, if we know that the family will be placed most of the times from an elevation view, it is better to place the object in the family on the opposite side of  the "placement side".

 

Anyway, to make things easier, put a "double vertical" control in the family. With this control, if the family comes on the wrong face, you can flip it easily to the opposite face.

 


Alfredo Medina _________________________________________________________________ ______
Licensed Architect (Florida) | Freelance Instructor | Autodesk Expert Elite (on Revit) | Profile on Linkedin
Message 5 of 18
rosskirby
in reply to: IMCornish

When you're working with reference planes, the factor that decides which direction is positive and which direction is negative is actually the direction in which the reference plane was drawn (i.e. right-to-left or top-to-bottom).

 

If you draw the ref. plane left-to-right, then create a positive extrusion in the placement side elevation, it will extrude toward you.  If you draw the ref. plane right-to-left, then create a positive value extrusion in the placement side elevation, it will extrude away from you.  See image.

 

Capture.JPG

 

My guess is that whoever created the initial wall-based family template drew the reference plane that is aligned with the face of the wall from right-to-left, so extrusions made in the placement side elevation get extruded away from you with a positive value.  Just create a new reference plan to define the face of the wall, align/lock it with the face of the wall, and you're good to go.

 

Doesn't excuse whoever set it up that way to begin with, but the developers seem to be fond of the plan-north side of families being the working point/view, and with drawing things counterclockwise.  Their may be a reason for it, but I haven't figured it out, and it's contrary to the way it should be, but that's just a personal preference, and it hasn't slowed me down yet.

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 6 of 18
dunnjt
in reply to: rosskirby

Ross, thanks for answering this question.

I see it's years later since you answered it, and people are still appreciating it.

That phenomenon has been eating my lunch.

 

- John 

Message 7 of 18
Sahay_R
in reply to: dunnjt

To fix - go into the desired 3D view, rt click on the View Cube>>Set Front To View>>Current View


Rina Sahay
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Revit Architecture Certified Professional

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Message 8 of 18
jszilagyiCHZG4
in reply to: spacefab

I found this completely confusing as well. I really think Autodesk messed up on this one since they also put a reference plane in the family locked to the rear of the wall called "Wall Edge". If you're hosting to the face of a wall why would you need to have a lock reference plan on the back of the wall? Also, the "placement side" text does not correspond to the side you will look at when hosting it, it's behind the placement wall and you place it on the other side. This becomes very apparent when you host in a 3D view or in an elevation view. Fix: move the text to the other side, and make a reference plane on the other side and lock it to the face of the wall before you build you generic wall based family. Might be wrong on this, I just don't find the logic intuitive on this one.

Message 9 of 18
dunnjt
in reply to: jszilagyiCHZG4

This still pains me.

Message 10 of 18
rainer2
in reply to: spacefab

Still confusing in Revit 2021...

WOW!

Message 11 of 18
IMCornish
in reply to: rainer2

It seems to me that nothing in Revit ever gets done. 7 years has gone by since I pointed out that nothing had been done in 2 months.  Good job Revit is a very good platform otherwise I would have moved on. Aren't the new things in Revit 2021 exciting.......sadly they are not. 

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 12 of 18
rosskirby
in reply to: IMCornish

IMCornish, I was just doing Revit training yesterday on this very topic.  Revit is still very much counter-clockwise oriented.  That is to say, drawing from right to left, bottom to top, etc. will always produce the results I posted 7 years ago, whether you're talking about reference planes or walls.  I've grown used to taking this into account as I work.  At some point, the devlopers had to decide on a default direction as "positive value" or "out" and a direction as "negative value" or "in" and this just happens to be the way they decided. 

 

I don't think it goes any further than that, and surely wasn't set up to intentionally frustrate or confuse.  But as a "feature" that isn't really documented anywhere (even in the intro to Revit guides that were available the last time I looked), I can understand why something that isn't readily apparent is frustrating, especially when so many other parts of the program are built around the WYSIWYG approach.

 

Out of curiosity, what is it you would like to see done?  If it's just a matter of editing the family template to add a reference plane that has the positive value away from the wall, the answer is there in my original post (well, an answer or short-term workaround, anyway).  Or would you like to have Autodesk make this change in the family template that ships with Revit?  If so, I'd suggest filing a support request, as those are more likely to make it back to the developer team(s) than posts on the forums.

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 13 of 18
IMCornish
in reply to: rosskirby

Thanks for the update Ross, it is much appreciated. However how many
people draw, or write for that matter, from right to left? The Chinese
perhaps but I am no expert. Thing is it is instinctive in most things to
think from left to right and that is the way I certainly am. Think of
graphs for example and this is amplified by the X and Y directions used
by Revit, they meet on the bottom left of plan drawings. In relation to
this it is also instinctive with me to draw walls, in plan view, in a
clockwise direction, only to find that the walls have their internal
faces looking outwards. I am sure that this results from the same
decision the designers of Revit made, however, they were probably not
building designers or artists.
Having said that, your possible solution sounds interesting, however, we
users of Revit have a living to make and pay well to Autodesk for this
excellent, otherwise, product. Could they, therefore, be encouraged to
create a software option meeting the expectations discussed?
Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 14 of 18
rosskirby
in reply to: IMCornish

I don't disagree; it's definitely counter-intuitive for me, or at least, it was for the first few years.  And I don't think it's out of line to expect the family templates to have been updated at this point, or to have this "feature" more clearly documented or controllable.  I'd still recommend filing a support request, or going directly to the new features suggestion board and posting there.  Those places are both referred to when the new versions of Revit are released when they're discussing new features and bug fixes.  Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 15 of 18
IMCornish
in reply to: rosskirby

"New features suggestions," where is this to be found please?
Thanks again
Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 16 of 18
rosskirby
in reply to: IMCornish

It's here: Revit Ideas (http://autodesk.com/revitideas)

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 17 of 18
dunnjt
in reply to: rosskirby

@rosskirby it's easy to complain (especially when frustrated), but more beneficial to follow up with solutions. Thanks for that reminder.

I'll submit an idea.

Message 18 of 18
delie
in reply to: jszilagyiCHZG4

I have the same issue with the asker. and the proposal to lock or align a reference plan to the other side cannot be achieved (I have Revit 2023). My experience with families on Revit lead me to say "the Revit families engine is useless, except for kids"

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