USACE Bentley "BIM" Requirement

[bward]

Has anyone out there been able to use Revit successfully on a USACE Centers of Standardization (COS) project requiring Bentley Architecture? We have tried outsourcing at the end of the project, but the USACE is now requiring intermediate submissions in Bentley. Our office switched from AutoCAD to Revit about 2 years ago and have not looked back. We have finally given in and I have endured a week of Bentley Architecture training this week (did not even know how to use MicroStation.) All I can say is once you have gone to a true central database type BIM like Revit, there is absolutely no going back to any CAD based software. I can not even begin to tell you how primitive the Bentley Software is and the USACE workflow makes a bad situation worse. It is like a Yugo that someone has been maintaining, added to, painting, tunning up, switching the tires, hanging some fuzzy dice and trying to sell it as a Corvette. At the end of the day, it is still a Yugo.

HELP!!

Brian Ward, AIA

[Anonymous]

I agree with you. Bentley Architecture aka MicroStation is the worst program
that I have ever had the pleasure of using. It is a shame I do not believe
any governmental agency funded trough our tax dollars should be dictating to
us what software programs that we should use.

"bward" wrote in message news:6280918@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Has anyone out there been able to use Revit successfully on a USACE
> Centers of Standardization (COS) project requiring Bentley Architecture?
> We have tried outsourcing at the end of the project, but the USACE is now
> requiring intermediate submissions in Bentley. Our office switched from
> AutoCAD to Revit about 2 years ago and have not looked back. We have
> finally given in and I have endured a week of Bentley Architecture
> training this week (did not even know how to use MicroStation.) All I can
> say is once you have gone to a true central database type BIM like Revit,
> there is absolutely no going back to any CAD based software. I can not
> even begin to tell you how primitive the Bentley Software is and the USACE
> workflow makes a bad situation worse. It is like a Yugo that someone has
> been maintaining, added to, painting, tunning up, switching the tires,
> hanging some fuzzy dice and trying to sell it as a Corvette. At the end of
> the day, it is still a Yugo.
>
> HELP!!
>
> Brian Ward, AIA

[Jason_S]

> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
> I agree with you. Bentley Architecture aka MicroStation is the worst program
> that I have ever had the pleasure of using. It is a shame I do not believe
> any governmental agency funded trough our tax dollars should be dictating to
> us what software programs that we should use.
>

OH come on!!! Bentley Architecture acts just like AutoCAD Architecture. That is their Vertical.

We have some rather large projects in Bentley Architecture and they are moving forward just fine.

[Jason_S]

> {quote:title=bward wrote:}{quote}
> Has anyone out there been able to use Revit successfully on a USACE Centers of Standardization (COS) project requiring Bentley Architecture? We have tried outsourcing at the end of the project, but the USACE is now requiring intermediate submissions in Bentley. Our office switched from AutoCAD to Revit about 2 years ago and have not looked back. We have finally given in and I have endured a week of Bentley Architecture training this week (did not even know how to use MicroStation.) All I can say is once you have gone to a true central database type BIM like Revit, there is absolutely no going back to any CAD based software. I can not even begin to tell you how primitive the Bentley Software is and the USACE workflow makes a bad situation worse. It is like a Yugo that someone has been maintaining, added to, painting, tunning up, switching the tires, hanging some fuzzy dice and trying to sell it as a Corvette. At the end of the day, it is still a Yugo.
>
> HELP!!
>
> Brian Ward, AIA


Brian,

We have not been able to find a loop hole or person to convince at the COS to allow Revit. All their standards and based on Bentley and Microstation.

We have though had a couple projects that are for the CORP that allowed Revit to be used. It wasn't over seem by the COS that is the reason they allowed it.

I am in the process of looking for a third party that will convert our Revit Models into Bentley once finished. Running several different CAD tools isn't a lot of fun especially when you have to jump back and forth between them. Gets confusing.

Lets hope they start to allow either package in the near future.

Thanks

[bward]

That is the problem we are having......it is just like AutoCAD Architecture. There is a reason we dropped AutoCAD Architecture (ADT at the time) and switched to Revit. Because Revit is truly a bi-directional, fully parametric, central data base type BIM. Automation of sheet information, not having to deal with layers and bi-directional schedules is something we have taken for grated over the past 3 years with Revit. Going back to a CAD based "BIM" is like going backwards in time. CAD software required a lot of hand holding to perform in 3D because at the end of the day, it was orignally intended to be used as a CAD program.

I am hopefully my company can find a work around or the industry gets tired of the COE maindate and take more aggressive action. If I can not speicify a product in my design because it has to be open selection (performace based) how in the world can the COE legally sole sorce a software.

Keep in mind, the COE standarized on BETA Max in the 80s, not VHS. 😉

[bward]

BTW, we have tried outsourcing the Bentley models at the end of the project and they have been rejected in the past. The primary reason was the datasets (Bentley non-sense) was not compatable with their standard datasets. It was not cheep to pay for the conversion either. If there was a more seamless 3rd party software, that would be an option. Don't know if there is a big enough market for that type of thing, but you never know. We would buy it.

[Jason_S]

The COE has been using Bentley products for decades. You know that going into getting a job at the COE. If you thought they didn't or changed what they wanted, that isn't their problem.

The bi-directional issue in Bentley isn't a problem. It actually works much nicer than ACA.

I love Revit and wish everyone in the world would use it but they don't. So we switch or use what the CLIENT wants when we get that job. Whether we agree or disagree with the clients wants. They are after all pay you for the work.

[Anonymous]

True, but we pay the COE with our tax dollars. So they kind of work us.

"caddman13" wrote in message news:6281444@discussion.autodesk.com...
> The COE has been using Bentley products for decades. You know that going
> into getting a job at the COE. If you thought they didn't or changed what
> they wanted, that isn't their problem.
>
> The bi-directional issue in Bentley isn't a problem. It actually works
> much nicer than ACA.
>
> I love Revit and wish everyone in the world would use it but they don't.
> So we switch or use what the CLIENT wants when we get that job. Whether
> we agree or disagree with the clients wants. They are after all pay you
> for the work.

[Jason_S]

> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
> True, but we pay the COE with our tax dollars. So they kind of work us.
>
AWW... the old saying we pay you. We pay the police via taxes too. So they shouldn't give us tickets when we do something wrong.

[Anonymous]

Interesting analogy but typically the police do not hire architects on a
regular basis to help them catch the bad guys. I have had several projects
over the years all the way back when microstation was an intergraph product.
I did not think much of it then and think even less of it now. If they want
to continue to work with antiquated technology so be it. IMO they may as
well require that their drawings to be hand drafted. But what do you expect
when engineers are allowed to select programs. But enough about microstation
and the COE I will leave that up to you good people to deal with and back to
Revit for me.


"caddman13" wrote in message news:6281457@discussion.autodesk.com...
>> {quote:title=Guest wrote:}{quote}
>> True, but we pay the COE with our tax dollars. So they kind of work us.
>>
> AWW... the old saying we pay you. We pay the police via taxes too. So
> they shouldn't give us tickets when we do something wrong.

[bward]

You guys are getting a little deep for me 🙂 The COE is one of the only games in town right now so I guess I will have to suck it up (i.e. hire someone else to deal with using that awful software.)

What about a Bentley developed Plugin that works inside of Revit and exports directly to DGN format? I have heard of one for Revit 2009, but do not know of one for 2010. My company has an Enterprise License Agreement with Bentley so it should not be hard to get (Big E, little A). I would do the project in Revit 2009 if I thought there was an export option.

[vector2]

bward- be aware that we have numerous
members in here that will flame you for
trying to discuss anything intelligent- they
can only deal with simple questions and
answers.. just don't let them pull you into
their rant..

[Anonymous]

I have heard others state that there were still problems even with the
plugin. Hopefully some others that have used it can chime in.

"bward" wrote in message news:6281572@discussion.autodesk.com...
> You guys are getting a little deep for me 🙂 The COE is one of the only
> games in town right now so I guess I will have to suck it up (i.e. hire
> someone else to deal with using that awful software.)
>
> What about a Bentley developed Plugin that works inside of Revit and
> exports directly to DGN format? I have heard of one for Revit 2009, but do
> not know of one for 2010. My company has an Enterprise License Agreement
> with Bentley so it should not be hard to get (Big E, little A). I would do
> the project in Revit 2009 if I thought there was an export option.

[Anonymous]

ONLY the Corps "Centers of Standardization" (COS) projects mandate Bentley.
Any other USACE project can use the tool of your choice.

"caddman13" wrote in message news:6281008@discussion.autodesk.com...
> {quote:title=bward wrote:}{quote}
> Has anyone out there been able to use Revit successfully on a USACE
> Centers of Standardization (COS) project requiring Bentley Architecture?
> We have tried outsourcing at the end of the project, but the USACE is now
> requiring intermediate submissions in Bentley. Our office switched from
> AutoCAD to Revit about 2 years ago and have not looked back. We have
> finally given in and I have endured a week of Bentley Architecture
> training this week (did not even know how to use MicroStation.) All I can
> say is once you have gone to a true central database type BIM like Revit,
> there is absolutely no going back to any CAD based software. I can not
> even begin to tell you how primitive the Bentley Software is and the USACE
> workflow makes a bad situation worse. It is like a Yugo that someone has
> been maintaining, added to, painting, tunning up, switching the tires,
> hanging some fuzzy dice and trying to sell it as a Corvette. At the end of
> the day, it is still a Yugo.
>
> HELP!!
>
> Brian Ward, AIA


Brian,

We have not been able to find a loop hole or person to convince at the COS
to allow Revit. All their standards and based on Bentley and Microstation.

We have though had a couple projects that are for the CORP that allowed
Revit to be used. It wasn't over seem by the COS that is the reason they
allowed it.

I am in the process of looking for a third party that will convert our Revit
Models into Bentley once finished. Running several different CAD tools
isn't a lot of fun especially when you have to jump back and forth between
them. Gets confusing.

Lets hope they start to allow either package in the near future.

Thanks

[BernardMadoff]

look @ Generative Components

[bward]

I wanted to throw this question out there again to see if anyone else has found a way around the Bentley "BI M" requirement for the Centers of Standardization (COS) projects. 

What has changed since this last posting: 

1. The USACE now has an enterprise license agreement with Autodesk

2. The USACE has admitted that they will allow for other BIM software in the future, but have not committed to a timeline.

Anyone out there have an idea when this might be?  Is it possible to get a professional organization (ACEC, AIA or SAME) involved to lobby for a change?  Certainly there needs to be more congressional investigation on how the USACE can sole source a product for so long.

[WM_Ron_Allen]

ELA with "implementation TBD" is hopeful - but we need more than hope- we need a solution- years ago.

This could be:

• Autodesk Buys Bentley (& buries them)
• Autodesk and Bentley work on true interoperability for BIM- Revit (NOT AutoCAD Architecture) AND Bentley BIM
• Autodesk Takes on the USACE directly- quoting single-sourcing for COS projects.
• Autodesk designs a true conversion tool to convert Revit to Bentley BIM
• Autodesk Revit users dealing with the seemingly ever-increasing number of COS projects by moving to dual platforms (Revit and Bentley BIM) - likely this leads to abandonment of Autodesk products due to the crippling cost of Bentley products.

USACE is NOT accepting translations late in the game anymore. The ever-increasing number of COS projects require Bentley BIM with extractions from the model - with proof of this at early submission phases (Early start & 50%, 100% and final)

I am not usually an advocate for the 800lb gorilla coming in and taking over but Bentley in this case is an outmode device equivalent to using cad overlays in ADT (Back when ADT first got started). …And I love the flexibility in ADT- but it is outmoded by true parametric modelers like Revit.

Only Autodesk can take these guys on in this economic environment... everyone else doesn't want to get left out to starve.

[bward]

• I don't think Autodesk would buy Bentley as the cost would not match the value. They would gain control of the State DOT market but I suspect Civil 3D will take care of that eventually
• Interoperability will only happen when Bentley actually develops or acquires a true BIM software and not a 3D CAD program pretending to be parametric, bi-directional BIM software.
• Autodesk’s strategy for dealing with the Bentley USACE issue started out fire and brimstone, send in the lawyers to a more grassroots win them over one person at a time approach. I think politically it is too much of a risk.
• As far as a true conversion, I think it can be done, however the effort and cost would probably be prohibitive and with each release the code would have to be re-written. And you can be sure the USACE would simply re-write their Attachment F to make it even more stringent and eliminate any hope of conversion. To make matters worse, the USACE is moving the COS projects from Design-Build to Adapt-Build where the designers fees reduced even more.
• Our studio is finding we have to have dual expertise in both platforms. Often we end up creating an hybrid model using Revit to model the more complex objects that Bentley can't touch..................like a roof.

AIA, SAME, ACEC and any other professional organizations need to represent their constituents and place congressional pressure on the corp. asking them nicely is not working. They were given an exemption by congress to sole source Bentley years ago. I don't know what the argument was for the exemption, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much to develop a good counter argument. 

Bentley is a Rube Goldberg machine. Send the rat up the steps, to push the ball that hits the candle that lights the match that burns the rope that holds the weight that ..........you get the idea. 

---

@Apsis0215 wrote:

ELA with "implementation TBD" is hopeful - but we need more than hope- we need a solution- years ago.

This could be:

• Autodesk Buys Bentley (& buries them)
• Autodesk and Bentley work on true interoperability for BIM- Revit (NOT AutoCAD Architecture) AND Bentley BIM
• Autodesk Takes on the USACE directly- quoting single-sourcing for COS projects.
• Autodesk designs a true conversion tool to convert Revit to Bentley BIM
• Autodesk Revit users dealing with the seemingly ever-increasing number of COS projects by moving to dual platforms (Revit and Bentley BIM) - likely this leads to abandonment of Autodesk products due to the crippling cost of Bentley products.

USACE is NOT accepting translations late in the game anymore. The ever-increasing number of COS projects require Bentley BIM with extractions from the model - with proof of this at early submission phases (Early start & 50%, 100% and final)

I am not usually an advocate for the 800lb gorilla coming in and taking over but Bentley in this case is an outmode device equivalent to using cad overlays in ADT (Back when ADT first got started). …And I love the flexibility in ADT- but it is outmoded by true parametric modelers like Revit.

Only Autodesk can take these guys on in this economic environment... everyone else doesn't want to get left out to starve.

---

[WM_Ron_Allen]

• I don't think Autodesk would buy Bentley as the cost would not match the value.

Yeah- that was wishful thinking on my part.

• Autodesk’s strategy for dealing with the Bentley USACE issue started out fire and brimstone, send in the lawyers to a more grassroots win them over one person at a time approach. I think politically it is too much of a risk.

Unfortunately the single source is leading everyone down a very expensive primrose path- we are having to buy into Bentley- and man it is expensive- $5k for software, another $5k for training, another $5k for help with the datasets- at this cost~ if Bentley appears to do most of what Revit does- why pay for Revi?t- The cost is approaching someones salary- Jobs are at stake.

• …To make matters worse, the USACE is moving the COS projects from Design-Build to Adapt-Build where the designers fees reduced even more.

Can you Cite an article or some source that supports this? I don’t doubt it- but we need to have our info together. 

• AIA, SAME, ACEC and any other professional organizations need to represent their constituents and place congressional pressure on the corp. asking them nicely is not working. They were given an exemption by congress to sole source Bentley years ago. I don't know what the argument was for the exemption, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much to develop a good counter argument. 

 Agreed- time to get some grass roots moving and get in touch with some congress people- how much will this end up costing the small businesses and in fact the Government itself to continue supporting the antiquated software known as Bentley. Entire states have adopted Revit- I will see exactly how bad the Bentley situation is as we go through training~ ugh~ feels like someone just stole my wallet.

[Jason_S]

Funny how this popped back to the top of the list.  I had forgotten about it, but we had a job recently that was for the COE that didn't have to follow the COS.  The RFP actually had Revit listed as an acceptable deliverable.