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Openings and their inability to be phased

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Message 1 of 25
IMCornish
5146 Views, 24 Replies

Openings and their inability to be phased

I have an issue with openings not being able to be phased.  In renovation projects it is quite common to widen an existing wall opening, for example.  However, openings cannot be phased, they can only be existing and therefore the only workaround is to add the 'new' opening, with its eventual width, in the 'as existing' view set and close it to the 'existing' width with a wall, or walls, that can be then be demolished in the 'new construction' views!  How mad is that?

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
24 REPLIES 24
Message 2 of 25
ccollins
in reply to: IMCornish

1. Try using a "frameless window"--open a window family, save-as, delete everything unneeded, keep the opening cut.

Load into your project. Use it in whatever Phase you need. Change sizes, etc. Schedule as needed.

 

2. Use Edit Profile of the wall to indicate the opening.

 

3. Use an in-place Void and Cut Geometry to create an "opening".

 

Just a few workarounds.

 

cheers

Cliff B. Collins
Registered Architect/BIM Manager
Thalden Boyd Emery Architects
St. Louis, MO
Message 3 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: ccollins

Cliff, thanks for the suggested workarounds, I shall have to try them out.  However, they are workarounds and for the BIM tag Revit has, surely it would be much better to have openings being phaseable (if there is such a word) and ultimately a schedule of demolitions would then be accurate.

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 4 of 25
john.lipp
in reply to: IMCornish

Hi IMCornish,  

As designed, phases cannot be assigned to openings created by the wall opening tool.  Rather than using the wall opening command, you could place an opening family such as the opening.rfa family found in the windows library or the other suggestions from .  

This has been logged with our Development group as a wishlist item.

The following link is setup for you to submit feature requests, or feedback, directly to our Development group:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=1109794

I recommend sending this as a wishlist request through the link as our development group is always interested in your feedback, and coming from an end user, it offers a compelling business case.


Best regards,



John Lipp
Support Specialist
Product Support
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 5 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: john.lipp

Thank you John, I have done as you have suggested and appreciate your added workarounds.  My position is perhaps a little over expectant but the virtual BIM world must, I believe, match the real world as closely as is possible if its reports, at all levels, are to be a believable and accurate forecast to be taken forward.

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 6 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: IMCornish

Having used the workaround and used door_opening.rfa to create my 'phased' opening, I have run into another issue. How do you connect two rooms as a single space since the door, albeit an opening, divides the space just as the wall did since it is Room-Bounding whilst a wall opening is not. I looked at the creating a door opening that is not Room Bounding but this cannot be done. Some would add 'obviously' here I expect. In summary, I am unable to cut an opening in an existing wall to combine two spaces (Rooms) in a proposed design without having the opening appear on the 'as existing' views and if I use the 'door_opening' workaround, I cannot have the two original spaces combine into one. Furthermore the later also shows the door opening footprint as a white space separating the room colours if you are using a colour scheme on your floor plans. Any other workarounds gratefully received.
Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 7 of 25
cjgielens
in reply to: IMCornish

also openings in roofs or floors cannot have a phase.

i have to build the roof or floor again to make a new opening in a different phase.

this was on the wish list..... for how long?

Message 8 of 25
Alfredo_Medina
in reply to: IMCornish


@IMCornish wrote:
... Any other workarounds gratefully received.

What if the wall that hosts the opening is made not rooom bounding, so that the two adjacent spaces join?


Alfredo Medina _________________________________________________________________ ______
Licensed Architect (Florida) | Freelance Instructor | Autodesk Expert Elite (on Revit) | Profile on Linkedin
Message 9 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: Alfredo_Medina

Thanks Alfredo, will try that and report back. 

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 10 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: cjgielens

Sounds like I have picked up this issue late, apologies if it is already on a wish list.  Surprised that it hasn't been included in the 2013 release if this is the case.  You also raise the importance of this thread by expanding the discussion to other openings, thanks.  

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 11 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: IMCornish

Thought I might add this note in regard to openings which I found on wikihelp.  Not phsing an opening but closing an existing.

See http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/index.php?title=Revit/enu/Community/Tips_and_Tricks/Modeling/Demolish_a...

 

Perhaps this, which is essentially a workaround, might be addressed by the developers also.

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 12 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: Alfredo_Medina


@Alfredo_Medina wrote:
What if the wall that hosts the opening is made not rooom bounding, so that the two adjacent spaces join?

Bit of a late response but this does not work because it denies the two adjacent spaces in the 'existing' phase, sorry to say.

I believe that, as a tool for alterations to existing buildings, sadly Revit is falling short of the mark in regard to phasing.  See also my other post in this regard:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Autodesk-Revit-Architecture/Phase-Graphics-at-the-View-Level/td-p/3618...

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 13 of 25
rosskirby
in reply to: IMCornish

Whether or not you use a proxy object (like a door family) for an opening, or whether your model the opening in the wall, and the parts to be removed as separate pieces is largely a matter of the size of the opening and the intended relationship between the adjacent rooms.

 

Let's say, for example, that I have an opening between two rooms that is roughly the size of a door.  In that case, I would use an opening proxy family, and the two rooms which it separates would remain separate rooms.  I don't know that I'd ever consider a room "continuous" through an opening as small as a door.

 

As another example, let's say I've got an opening between two rooms that spans almost the entire width of the room.  In that case, I would model the opening in the wall by editing the profile of the wall, rather than use an opening proxy family.  I would also model any parts of that wall on either side of the opening that are to be removed as separate wall objects, and then demo them in the new construction phase.

 

I've done my fair share of renovation projects in Revit, large, small, simple and intricate, and have yet to run into a situation that requires me to do much more than what I mentioned above.  I think that the same is probably true in your case, and perhaps a little more experimentation is in order before asking that a specific tool be added to the program for a limited use.

 

All that being said, we're all here to help and learn, and if you have a particular situation where you've encountered a problem, and image is worth a thousand words, as they say, and in our field, I might even say it's worth substantially more.

Ross Kirby
Principal
Dynamik Design
www.dynamikdesign.com
Message 14 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: rosskirby

Ross, firstly let me say how grateful I am for your contribution, it is very welcome.

 

In reply to your second paragraph;

 


@rosskirby wrote:

I don't know that I'd ever consider a room "continuous" through an opening as small as a door.


I have a particular reason to do this where I am extending an En-Suite by taking part of a bedroom but only removing the existing En Suite door leaf, leaving the frame, and wish to illustrate to our client the increased size of En Suite area and the reduced size of the Bedroom for their consideration.

In regard to your further comment;

 


@rosskirby wrote:

As another example, let's say I've got an opening between two rooms that spans almost the entire width of the room.  In that case, I would model the opening in the wall by editing the profile of the wall, rather than use an opening proxy family.  I would also model any parts of that wall on either side of the opening that are to be removed as separate wall objects, and then demo them in the new construction phase.

 


Are you able to help me further with this one as I would like to understand you fully?  Altering the wall profile of an existing wall that is to have a substantial opening punched through it to join to rooms, will surely alter the profile of the existing wall even if it is altered in a new construction phase view. Also why would you model wall parts on either side of the opening to be demolished?

 

Lastly I would say, in defence of my cries to improve the software in these respects.  I believe that us designers should have intuitive software that creates the virtual model in the same way that the real building project would be undertaken since it would be a far more logical approach. When you break through the dividing wall between to rooms automatically the two rooms become one space.  This is waht I believe should simply happen in the software, because however you view it we are discussing workarounds here, aren't we?

 

Thanks again foryour invaluable help, it is much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 15 of 25
peterjegan
in reply to: IMCornish

I think Alfredo's suggestion of making the demising wall non room-bounding is on the right track, but I would add this:

 

In the existing phase, place the demising wall and set it to non room-bounding. Place room separation lines on each side of the demising wall. (Ignore warnings about room separation lines in the same place as the wall.) This will give you two rooms in the existing phase.

 

In the new construction phase, demolish the room separation lines. The demising wall will still be non room bounding, so now your new construction phase will have one large room with the wall in the middle.  Place whatever openings you want in the demising wall, and it won't affect the room.

Message 16 of 25
AaronEllsworth
in reply to: IMCornish

So, I'm running into this same issue that I want to cut a new opening into an existing wall, but the wall opening object always has the same phase as the host wall.  This thread is from 2012 but its now 2016 and I'm using Revit 2017.  The phasing of doors and windows works, how hard would it be to get the same behavior from a wall opening? Can I re-add this to the user wish list items?

Message 17 of 25

I agree.  I just ran into the same issue.  It seems this was an issue in 2012 and now four years later, it appears the issue has not been solved?  If it has, please let me know how.

Message 18 of 25
IMCornish
in reply to: sgoldstein4682

I started this thread in 2012 and am still awaiting a satisfactory solution!  My only conclusion is that Autodesk is not listening!

I have countered most suggested 'workarounds' with comparisons of how it would be done in actuality, by a builder/contractor, and since we are working with BIM it should be noted that builders do not follow these 'workarounds' since they are in the real world, not the 'virtual' one.  This is important because as BIM progresses and is already producing data for building contracts, it should be accurately reporting quantities such as demolitions and that which is new etc.

Will Revit 2018 have the answers, sadly I don't expect so.... 

Andrew Robertson
Chartered Architect
Robertson Partnership
Truro. UK
Message 19 of 25
BristolCAD
in reply to: IMCornish

I would be interested to see if this ever becomes a feature

 

I'm fairly new to Revit, but I was playing with phasing properly for the first time today and couldn't understand why I wasn't able to phase a slab opening - according to this thread, perhaps its not possible!

 

My proposed works involve cutting an opening in the floor slab of a retail unit and adding some stairs down to the basement area. Fairly standard stuff in the commercial world. So, the existing phase I have my floorslab, the proposed phase should be the slab opening and stairs. I can phase the stairs, but the slab opening apparently not! So although the stairs correctly phase and do not show up on the existing phase plan, the slab opening still shows up on the existing phase. Even though its proposed works and shouldn't exist on in this phase.

 

Seems a bit of an obvious oversight.

Message 20 of 25
ToanDN
in reply to: BristolCAD

I am playing devil's advocate here.

 

I doubt the developer will ever address this problem.  Firstly, the problem is not severe since there is a number of relatively easy workarounds.  Secondly, one can argue the opening commands are tools to modify the geometry of other objects.  Tools do not have phases.

 

I did not read the entire thread so I may repeat what has been said.  There are better ways to create fenestration.  It's a no brainer to use door/window families for regular shaped opening.   If you need to create an odd shaped opening that is flexible to change on the fly in the project environment, use Component/Model in-place/ Generic, there is an Opening tool right there.  Select a host, draw an outline and you are good to go.  You now can assign phase, workset, override graphic, etc.

 

Capture.PNG

 

I wouldn't hang up on some problems that can easily be overcome.

 

 

 

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