Fill Patterns

[ari.mont]

Hi,

I'm studying how best to represent a modulation of masonry in Revit 2010. Already evaluated the use families, but I noticed, though this method is interesting, the project file gets too heavy.

Then I started to evaluate the use of Fill Patterns. I noticed that I can create a hatch pattern (attached) specific to a particular dimension of wall (length x height).

In this hatch pattern I'm considering modules for a possible block size of the wall. This because I'm wanting to represent the modulation exactly as it is, and not using a representation simplified, as the hatch pattern available in Revit.

But I'm finding some problems:

1. I am using OFFSET = 2 x Height of Wall. I adopted this value for 2 reasons:

1.1. I can not use the value ZERO
1.2. If I use the height of the wall, I noticed that part of the hatch appears on the opposite side of the wall.

But using OFFSET = 2 x height of wall, I noticed that the hatch pattern appears only on one side. How to do this hatch pattern appears on the other side of the wall?

2. As this hatch pattern is specific to a particular dimension of the wall would have to rewrite it to a new dimension to the wall. So, Is there a way to improve the PAT file code to solve this issue?

Thanks,
Ari Monteiro
Dharma Sistemas Edited by: ari.mont on Apr 16, 2010 4:54 PM

[Alfredo_Medina]

Ari,

You're working too hard. Your hatch pattern file contains about a hundred lines of code. You are writing code for every course of block. However, the pattern still doesn't work. Look at this other pattern, already created for AutoCAD, which you can import into Revit; it contains 6 lines of code, only, just the pattern, and it does work.

*BLOCWALL, Cement block wall
;%TYPE=MODEL
0, 0,0, .5,.5, .96,-.04
0, 0,.46, .5,.5, .96,-.04
90, 0,0, .5,.5, .46,-.54
90, -.04,0, .5,.5, .46,-.54

About how to make the wall show the patterns on both sides, select a wall > duplicate > rename > edit structure > material > select a material > etc.

Please see attached image.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[ari.mont]

Alfredo,

Thank you for the feedback!

Your hatch pattern does not solve my problem because it only represents at most an entire block and a half block. I need represent all the modules in a family of blocks according to the available space on the wall and so satisfy a particular modulation.

That is why I described each row in my hatch pattern. Actually, my pattern will only work for a wall of 1000x2700mm. For any other measure will have to update the PAT. I certainly do not want to do it manually. I'm thinking of automating this task using the Revit API.

I've tried to use your suggestion to display the hatch pattern on both sides of the wall, but unsuccessfully. I noticed that when I apply a hatch pattern that you sent me or any of Revit, I don't need to do any adjustment to display them on either side of the wall. But when I apply my hatch pattern is not true.

I'm adding two layers (membrane layers) in the wall structure and applying a hatch patterns But, Revit seems to ignore my settings.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ari

[Alfredo_Medina]

Ari,

Adding the material to the wall is like this:
select a wall > duplicate > rename > edit structure > material > select a materia > duplicate a material > assign a surface pattern > model > new > custom pattern > import > select your custom model hatch pattern file > if necessary adjust the scale, ok to all windows...

What I still don't understand is your goal about the modulation of the wall.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[Anonymous]

You can use the align tool on surface patterns in Revit. Build the walls
you need in the specific lengths and then use the align tool to position the
pattern as you need it on each seperate wall segment.

--
Jeff Hanson
SME (Subject Matter Expert)
Autodesk - BIM UX
Manchester, NH


wrote in message news:6374816@discussion.autodesk.com...
Alfredo,

Thank you for the feedback!

Your hatch pattern does not solve my problem because it only represents at
most an entire block and a half block. I need represent all the modules in a
family of blocks according to the available space on the wall and so satisfy
a particular modulation.

That is why I described each row in my hatch pattern. Actually, my pattern
will only work for a wall of 1000x2700mm. For any other measure will have to
update the PAT. I certainly do not want to do it manually. I'm thinking of
automating this task using the Revit API.

I've tried to use your suggestion to display the hatch pattern on both sides
of the wall, but unsuccessfully. I noticed that when I apply a hatch pattern
that you sent me or any of Revit, I don't need to do any adjustment to
display them on either side of the wall. But when I apply my hatch pattern
is not true.

I'm adding two layers (membrane layers) in the wall structure and applying a
hatch patterns But, Revit seems to ignore my settings.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ari

[Alfredo_Medina]

Ari,

How is a hatch pattern that only works for one particular wall size of 1000x2700mm, that needs to be modified for every other wall, how is it better than a pattern that works for any size? That's why it is called a pattern. I don't understand what you're after. This "Blocwall" hatch pattern shows the correct sizes of concrete blocks. If the length of the wall is a multiple of the length of the block, and if the height of the wall is also a multiple of the block coursing height, the pattern will show complete CMU units and complete half units, exactly, without any fractions.

Do you want to calculate the number of concrete block units in the wall?

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[ari.mont]

Answering your last two posts ...

I've used the method you suggested to display hatch patterns on both sides of the wall. It was worked with hatch patterns that comes with Revit, but when I use my hatch pattern, I can only apply it for one side of the wall. In Brazil, the blocks have more than two fractions. For example, for a given family of concrete blocks we can have the following modules:

Modules Length(mm) Height(mm)
Integer Block 390 190
1 / 2 Block 190 190
1 / 4 Block 90 190
1 / 8 Block 40 190

I'm looking for a way to represent these modules within a modulation using hatch patterns. It can seems so strange, but in Brazil does not follow a rigid pattern of modulation in construction. Currently there is an effort by some regulatory organizations, manufacturers and contractors to define a standard calls modular coordination. While this standard does not come out, the projects are still being done without much discretion as regards the choice of a family of blocks.

Furthermore, there is a kind of project here calls masonry design. The objective of this type of project is to optimize the use of modules of blocks and the coordination among masonry modulation with the structure and facilities of the building.For this type of project the representation of modulation available in Revit (hatch patterns) is not satisfactory. As I explained before, could use the family concept to model my own block families. But I found that using this method leaves the project file too heavy.

In the early stages of the masonry design the goal is to define the modulations that are used in each wall. If I'll can represent these modulations using a "smart hatch pattern" project files would be much lighter. For the remaining phases of the masonry design, requiring the adaptation of modulation, I intend to use the Revit API resources to create a command that turns this "smart hatch pattern in true 3D blocks.

So, I hope it is now more clear why I'm trying to represent with a hatch pattern all possible modules of a family of blocks. Accordingly, for each dimension of the wall we can have several configurations of modulation.

Finally, if here the buildings were modular, we would have only two fractions of block work and the hatch pattern that comes in Revit would be enough.

So, any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ari Edited by: ari.mont on Apr 20, 2010 5:16 PM

[ari.mont]

Jeff,

One doubt: This feature is about surface patterns (custom patterns in curtain walls) not hatch patterns, right? If not, can you explain where it

is on Revit 2010 interface, please? Can I use this method to solve my problems?

Thanks,
Ari

[Alfredo_Medina]

Ari

So far I understand that the goal of the modulation you are working on is to optimize the use of block units on certain wall sizes, and reduce waste, etc. However, there is only one issue I have not understood, or that you did not answer in your explanation: at the end, do you want to quantify how many blocks of different types are used in those walls?. So far you have talked about a graphics approach, only, and I understand that, but an optimization process should also involve some quantification, or not?. That's my question.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[ari.mont]

Alfredo,

To answer your question ... yes I intend to quantify the modules used in modulation block.

Once I managed to manually generate the hatch pattern, I intend to automate this process using programming.

I have developed an algorithm to calculate modulations and implemented in AutoLISP in AutoCAD a few years ago. Now I want to do the same for Revit.

Today, in my Master thesis, I am studying an efficient way to represent modulations of masonry tools in CAD-BIM.

- Ari

[Robert_Grandmaison]

If you're attempting to quantify the block count, wouldn't it be better, perhaps, to calculate the volume of the masonry portion of the wall and then divide by a single masonry unit module volume? I've never looked into it, but with all the properties built into Revit, surely it has the ability to schedule this?

[Robert_Grandmaison]

This thread has me thinking. It's easy enough to create a schedule to get wall areas and volumes- but is there a way to get the individual volumes for wall assembly components? I'd like to access the volume of just the CMU in a composite wall...or just the clay brick in a brick masonry wall. Revit could make approximations and I could add calculations to schedules to get close- but walls wrapping would result in my calculations being off. Surely there's a way to dig deeper into the general wall volumes and find the volume for each specific layer within the wall?

Update: I just found it. I see that if I do a material takeoff schedule I can get what I'm looking for- however, I need to go into the material identity via Materials and add a meaningful description into the material identity. Then it shows up on the takeoff list under Materials: Description. Please excuse my ramblings- I'm new to this feature and am figuring out ways of putting it to good use. I am concerned, however, that it might not be taking actual volumes of walls into account- that is it may not be taking volumes into account as walls wrap around corners. I'll have to test it some more and see.

Update to the Update: Yep. It's accurately wrapping the volumes as you turn corners. 🙂 What a fun tool. Edited by: Robert_Grandmaison on Apr 20, 2010 7:49 PM

[Alfredo_Medina]

I was about to tell you about the material take-off schedule when I found that you had posted an update. Yes, it is possible to calculate the volume of the individual layers that make up a compound wall style. You need basically a Material take-off schedule with these two fields: Material:name and Material:volume.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[Robert_Grandmaison]

Thank you for the confirmation Alfredo.

[Alfredo_Medina]

Bob,

After reading Ari's explanation, I have the feeling that this can be done in another way. The way he is approaching this seems like too much work, too much programming. It looks as if it could be achieved better with a combination of wall types, parameters, hatch patterns and material take-off schedules. What is your impression?

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[Anonymous]

> So, any suggestions?

With the requirements that you have proposed, a hatch pattern seems
ill-equipped to handle this complexity.


In your case, I would consider creating a new curtain wall type. Set
the horizontal spacing at a fixed dimension of 190mm. Leave the
vertical spacing at "None". Set the Curtain Panel to be Basic Wall:Your
Generic CMU.

For each wall run, you can then manually add vertical grid lines to
define your modulations, and schedule all of the sizes with a Curtain
Panel schedule.


--
Brian Winterscheidt
LWPB Architecture
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

[Robert_Grandmaison]

Alfredo,

It sounds to me like he's trying to do an actual count of all the blocks in the project. If the blocks are all the same size and dont' have any soldier coursing/etc, then I could see how you could simply total up the volumes for the the Material Descriptions within the Takeoff list and divide the total volume by the volume per block. That assumes, of course, that you're cutting all blocks and not using half blocks. 😉

So, if you had different layouts, that had more complex courses with different size blocks, you could still do it based on the total volume- but you'd need to take a sample of a wall and calculate the percentage of the volume for each different course as it relates to the total volume for the entire volume of the wall...then simply apply those perentages to the total volume for the entire project or levels accordingly.

Still, I'd order 6-10% more for damage and bad cuts!!! 😉

[Alfredo_Medina]

I took a look at Ari's hatch pattern file, and my conclusion is that he is misunderstanding how a hatch pattern file works. A hatch pattern file has a certain structure that he's not following. Each line of code represents a vector line that will be repeated in both sides of the line, according to certain information given in the code. The format is like this:

Rotation Angle, Origin, Delta X for repetition, Delta Y for repetition, Uninterrupted length, -Length of gap before next repetition.

For example: 0, 0,10, 200,200, 390,-10
Represents a line that is horizontal (0 rotation angle), starts at 0,10 , repeats itself in X every 200, repeats itself in Y every 200, goes uninterrupted for 390 units, then stops and leaves a gap of 10 units before it repeats itself.

So that's why the hatch pattern for the metric CMU units that Ari is trying to do needs only 4 lines to draw the blocks. Everything else is created by the repetition of the following pattern (see attached file):

0, 0,10, 200,200, 390,-10
0, 0,200, 200,200, 390,-10
90, 0,10, 200,200, 190,-210
90, -10,10, 200,200, 190,-210

It does not make sense at all to write code for 14 courses of block, the only difference between those courses being the Y value of the lines' origin, to jump to the next course. Everything else is the same. That is one reason why that hatch pattern breaks when the wall has a different length or height, and also, the reason why the hatch pattern also shows in only one side of a wall in Revit; because the hatch pattern file does not follow the proper structure, so Revit doesn't know what to do with it.

In addition, it is perfectly possible to create a schedule in Revit that calculates the exact number of whole CMU blocks and the exact number of half CMU units needed for a certain wall of any height and length, given that these dimensions are multiples of the block's dimensions. The schedule needs some formulas, but there is no need for any further programming to achieve this.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[Alfredo_Medina]

This is the kind of schedule that could be created to calculate those quantities, supported by the hatch pattern, to visually check if the quantities are working fine.

Please see attached image.

Alfredo Medina
info@planta1.com

[ari.mont]

Alfredo,

Very interesting your idea to create schedules with formulas. I'm trying to reproduce your example, but some doubts have arisen in the formulas you used.

Could you explain how you set up the formulas?

By the way, this reasoning works for cash openings of doors and windows?

Thanks,
Ari