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Sketching Mouse Click/Snap on Downstroke?

Sketching Mouse Click/Snap on Downstroke?

Noticed an issue lately with snapping sketch elements to where we want while sketching in Inventor 2013.  We finally figured out what is going on.  In Inventor sketching if you are in the rectangle command and you depress the left mouse button, then while holding it down you slide the pointer somewhere else on the screen and release the button, the corner of the rectangle snaps down where you RELEASED the button.

 

We bounce between AutoCAD and Inventor and In AutoCAD 2013 when you execute the rectangle command and you depress the left mouse button and while holding it down you slide your mouse pointer somewhere else on the screen, the first corner of the rectangle snaps where you DEPRESSED the mouse button, not where you released it as Inventor does. 

 

This issue is similar with any sketching/drawing elements.  In AutoCAD it snaps when you press the button down, in Inventor it doesn't snap until you release it.  So if you move even slightly in Inventor sketching before the mouse button resets and settles your sketch point will not be where you wanted it, often just slightly away from the snap point you were over when you depressed the button. 

 

To use AutoCAD and Inventor you have to totally change your mouse function syntax when you go between the two.  We find Inventor sketching to be prone to incorrect points causing sketches to not be closed and lots of extra work to examine and repair.  Or pausing and waiting each and every time you click the mouse while sketching.  Both impact efficiency and productivity.

 

See no reason Inventor sketching and AutoCAD drawing can't treat the mouse clicks the same.  Making the mouse function in Inventor that same as AutoCAD would boost efficency and reduce frustration with Inventor.

20 Comments
Rory_M
Advocate

The problem with changing to match AutoCAD is that it would break existing Inventor functionality such as clicking & dragging to create arcs whilst in the line command, or to draw tangent or perpendicular lines.

 

I agree that coming from AutoCAD makes it tricky at first, but it's actually AutoCAD that doesn't conform to windows standards rather than Inventor. As an example, try making text bold in Word (without keyboard shortcuts!). When you click the icon it does nothing till you let go of the mouse.

 

As a compromise, make it optional, with a warning when it's toggled that it will stop certain commands from functioning. Maybe a CTRL or ALT key to override it when it's switched on.

scottveix
Contributor

Easy way around that for Inventor would be to nest in the OSNAP functions and just do a different command for a dragging arc.  Really can't see trashing snapping and drawing efficiency for the occasional dragging arc or dragging tangent need.  And for those of us with decades and decades of AutoCAD archives that need to be accessed we didn't "come" from AutoCAD, we're still "IN" AutoCAD.  So trying to change how you click when often we're in both simultaneously is a real challenge.

 

Still can't figure out who the heck needs to snap a dimension to the midpoint of an arc segment.

cmcconnell
Collaborator

I drag arcs all the time. Please do not change teh way Inventor works when it comes to clicking.

scottveix
Contributor

Even using the drag arc feature has to be done from some existing line or rectangle.  If it was made to right mouse click or KEY+click for the drag arc or something like that, not a big impact.  If you took a survey of how many left mouse clicks are used to do the drag arc command and how many are used to draw all other sketch entities, the drag arc would be under 1%.

 

I do believe that Autodesk spent many years honing in the efficient technique used in AutoCAD so don't see not altering that one command being justification to stray from what is proven. 

Rory_M
Advocate

I use clicking and dragging a lot too so I'd completely disagree that changing Inventor's click method wouldn't have a large impact.

 

Making any major change like this should always be an option in the software.

 

I agree that using both AutoCAD and Inventor is a real challenge, but that doesn't make Inventor wrong. Maybe it's AutoCAD that's been wrong all these years?.... Smiley Wink

scottveix
Contributor

Please ellaborate on what click-and-drag you would loose while sketching if Inventor used the down click for the snap input when in the line/rectangle/sketching commands other then click dragging for tangent or creating a dragging arc at the end of a snapped point?  Some posts sound like sketching would be a disaster if this were the case but for some reason it works fine in the AutoCAD world.

 

A good comparison would be if your gun shot the bullet when the trigger was fully released rather then when you pulled it.  Would that make sense?  Doubt anyone would be able to hit the mark.  And snapping to a point is "pulling the trigger" (i.e. - mouse clicking) when aiming at the target.

 

 

Rory_M
Advocate

Here's a few things that would be affected if the line command selected the start point of a line as soon as the mouse button was depressed (like AutoCAD).

 

  • Click and drag from end of a line (or arc) to draw a tangent arc.
  • Click and drag from end of a line (or arc) to draw a perpendicular arc.
  • Click and drag tangent to a circle or arc to draw a tangent line
  • Click and drag away from from a circle or arc to draw a perpendicular line
  • Click and drag away from a line to draw a perpendicular line.

You may not think that this would be a major change but it would be. Changing the way a piece of software accepts mouse clicks after 18 releases over 13 years would be a decision that should not be taken lightly.

 

The gun analogy works when compared with the AutoCAD line command, but isn't appropriate to Inventor as the  Inventor line command has more than one mode of operation. It might work fine in the AutoCAD world but Inventor isn't AutoCAD.

 

Each of the 2 lines on the simple Inventor sketch below require 1 mouse press & drag to be coincident with and tangent constrained to both circles. AutoCAD would require more effort to do this.

It's a simple example but typical of the difference between the two.

 

The drawing commands in AutoCAD are designed to create complete drawings and to work with the AutoCAD object snapping system, whereas the Inventor sketcher is designed to create relatively simple shapes as a model is built up out of multiple features.

 

Comparing them is unfortunately like comparing apples and oranges, and each one is different for their own good and justifiable reasons. Shoehorning the function of one piece of software into another is risky and could create a hybrid that pleases either everyone or no-one.

 

iv.jpg

 

scottveix
Contributor

All good arguments which would basically disappear with some Inventor tweaked Osnap function like AutoCAD. Or a key+mouse click option (hold down the T key while clicking a point for dragging tangent for example).  Have had many circumstances when tangent dragging absolutely refused to go to the correct side of the circle and other quirks. Many times a line end snaps down some minor small distance away from the end of another line because the pick selection box area can't be made large enough to compensate for an unsteady mouse operator.  This leaves an open area so extruding won't happen properly.  Removing a line and redrawing many times creates redundant points or somehow breaks the sketch where as a valid snapping control feature with selection area improvements would eliminate this.

 

Still curious, when sketching in SolidWorks, ProE, or other CAD packages, do they wait for the mouse button to reset before they accept the screen pick for basic sketch geometry?

 

Definitely correct, apples and oranges.  AutoCAD has easy, clear and obvious Osnap commands which can do things like snap to the midpoint of a long line without dragging your mouse pointer along the line looking for the little green dot to appear, ability to override snaps on the fly, ability to limit what you what to snap to, ability to increase the pick box size to whatever the operator needs, clear and concise snapping icon displays rather than looking for a little green dot, selecting point on downstroke which increases proficiency, AutoCAD's sketching tools are far advanced from what Inventor has.

scottveix
Contributor

Of course these are my opinions and I strive for efficiency when working (especially since we always have very aggressive machine design completion schedules) and try to eliminate speed bumps where ever possible.  Not saying Inventor is wrong, just think it could be much more efficient  Smiley Happy

cmcconnell
Collaborator

You can snap to the midpoint of a line in Invetor as well just RMB and pick the point snap you want. There are not as many as AutoCAD but I haven't ever been able to sketch what I want in Inventor.

scottveix
Contributor
Limited for sure, still wonder why AutoCAD was not just ported over as the sketching tool for Inventor. That would of made sense and made transition from 2D AutoCAD to 3D Inventor seemless for the multitude of existing AutoCAD users.
Curtis_Waguespack
Consultant

Hi scottveix,

I vote NOT to change Inventor's sketching tools, also.

 

When ever I see someone wanting Inventor to sketch like AutoCAD I most often see them using Inventor like it is AutoCAD. One of the things that will help make Inventor much more user friendly is to understand it is a completely different application, and that the approach is simply different than AutoCAD. See this link:

http://inventortrenches.blogspot.com/2011/03/inventor-101-simple-fully-constrained.html

 

I used AutoCAD for years before using Inventor, and I still use it pretty much the way I always have ( a lot of keyboard input, offsets, trim/extend, copy, etc. ). I like the way AutoCAD works and I like the way Inventor works. But they do work differently, and this is by design.

 

I hope this helps.
Best of luck to you in all of your Inventor pursuits,
Curtis
http://inventortrenches.blogspot.com

scottveix
Contributor

The only topic of this discussion is if using the down mouse click as your sketching input trigger is more accurate and efficient then using the button up position.  Nothing more so this shouldn't head towards an AutoCAD vs Inventor discussion. 

 

The down stroke is only dependent upon the user fully depressing the button, the up stroke is dependent on how the user raises their finger after depressing the button, how fast the button releases and fully resets (dependent upon construction of the mouse), and if the operator remained stationary throughout this cycle.  There's a lot more variables in the up stroke then the down which if looked at purely through physical function is prone to more error.  Same principle as how the trigger on a gun operates as stated before.

 

Still waiting for someone to say if Solid Works, ProE, or any other 3D modeling software uses the down mouse click or the up mouse click as the input trigger for line ends and other sketching elements.  And also if there is any justification for using the upstroke other than the drag-arc function. 

dan_szymanski
Autodesk
Status changed to: Future Consideration

I feel the core idea presented here is to simply provide an additional behavioral option within Inventor sketching that would make the experience similar to AutoCAD (not to re-engineer or change current behavior). Please cast a kudo if you like the idea, otherwise ignore.

Thanks!

-Dan

scottveix
Contributor

FOUND A SOLUTION :

 

This might be kind of rigged BUT IT WORKS.  I use an application called AutoHotKey AHK to emulate keyboard strokes and shortcut some laborious functions.  Been bouncing this topic on their forums and got the script below worked out.  What this does is when in Inventor, the left mouse button being depressed automatically sends a mouse button UP command so the button acts like AutoCAD when in sketching mode in Inventor.  Works GREAT!  Now the left mouse button being clicked down and held is used to create arcs from lines or to drag items in assemblies so an option was added that if the CONTROL key is depressed when the left mouse button is depressed then the left mouse button acts like it normally does to drag things like normal in Inventor. 

 

#SingleInstance, Force
#Persistent
#NoEnv
#MaxHotKeysPerInterval, 121
SetBatchLInes, -1
SendMode, Input
SendLevel, 1

#ifWinActive ahk_class (MUST ENTER INDIVIDUAL CLASS OF INVENTOR WINDOW HERE)

$~LButton::
  SendLevel, 0
  Send, {LButton Up}
return

!LButton::
  SendLevel, 0
  Send, {LButton DownTemp}
return

!LButton Up::
  SendLevel, 0
  Send, {LButton Up}
return

^LButton::
  SendLevel, 0
  Send, {LButton Down}
return

#ifWinActive

 

So far this works GREAT!!!  Have not had that issue with lines snapping somewhere way away from the position I was at when I down clicked.  So while sketching in Inventor, the location that a sketch feature snaps to is where my mouse pointer is when I click it DOWN rather than it waiting until the mouse button is released and returns to it' full UP position.

scottveix
Contributor

Retracting that last comment as changing this as persistent affects some things in the menu selections so change the script to be this :

 

#ifWinActive ahk_class (MUST ENTER INDIVIDUAL CLASS OF INVENTOR WINDOW HERE)^LButton::
  SendLevel, 0
  Send, {LButton Up}
return

#ifWinActive

 

This way when I am sketching I can just click and hold the CTRL key down while actually drawing and the mouse then accepts the DOWN mouse button as the selection point rather than waiting for the mouse button to retract before selecting the point.

scottveix
Contributor

Change the command one (hopefully) last time.  Changed to +LButton for SHIFT + Left Mouse Button as the CTRL+LButton has some things it does in the menus.  So far so good with that.

scottveix
Contributor

Checked to Windows button + left mouse button, SHIFT + left mouse button is how you select multiple things from the model tree.  Ooops.... Smiley Surprised    #LButton

dan_szymanski
Autodesk
Status changed to: Implemented
This idea has been implemented within Autodesk Inventor 2015. Special thanks to the author of this Idea and likewise to everyone who cast your Kudo for it. Within the Sketch environment we now acquire point on mouse down. Please be sure to check this out in Autodesk Inventor 2015. Thanks!
troydutton
Observer

Dan,

    Now that you have fixed Inventor 2015, are there any options for users of Inventor 2013 to enable "acquire point on mouse down" in sketch mode? Having to hold the mouse steady while the button snaps up means that I must draw slower in Inventor sketch than I do in AutoCAD in order to make sure that I hit the object snap point.

 

Also, why doesn't Inventor have a setting that works like AutoCAD's APERTURE command to change the size of the selection box for object snaps? The default selection box size in Inventor is very small, and sometimes my mouse moves outside the box as the button snaps up. And before you AutoCAD critics make any derogatory comments, I  am not trying to make Inventor sketch work like AutoCAD, I am just addressing deficiencies in Inventor sketch that make it difficult to quickly and reliably hit snap points.

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