Inventor General Discussion

Inventor General Discussion

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Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 1 of 11 (611 Views)

Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

611 Views, 10 Replies
12-08-2012 09:56 AM

Hello all,

 

I am about to publish my first custom structural shape for use in Frame Generator and using the Frame Analysis tools. This custom part is currently authored as a table driven iPart. It would appear from a search that FA will still not calculate all of the required section properties needed for a hollow section, which is a future bummer for me, but becuase this current shape isn't hollow I might be okay on this first one. I have a few questions about this authoring process:

 

1.) When publishing the structural shape it will ask me for a Standard Organization and a Standard. My shape is bent from a light gage plate material covered by ASTM A1011/A1011M-12B but isn't a standard structural shape. My Mastering Inventor book (Curtis, if you're out there buddy, this part of the book could use further development) says that if I leave the Standard Organization field blank, the category selection will be "Unknown". That's all it says.

   a. Does this mean there would be an issue using or selecting the part?

   b. Should I list ANSI as the Standard Organization even though this shape technically isn't covered, the material is?

   c. Can I enter a Standard in the field or is this a drop down list only?

   d. If I can only select from a pre-determined list, what do I select for the shape?

   e. If I leave all of this stuff blank because it is not governed by a particular standard will this affect the performace of the parts?

 

2.) When I publish the part the wizard will ask me to map section properties from the parameters to the drop down lists in the wizard.

   a. How do I enter user parameters into the iPart file/table that match the units formatting for the properties (e.g. 5.46in^4, 2.36in^2, etc.)?

   b. If I don't have (or don't need) certain parameters available during the authoring process, how will I know the part will still function properly using the beam/column calculators and frame analysis tools?

   c. Is there a list of which parameters are required for which tools (e.g. the Frame Analysis doesn't use any of them, the beam-column calculator will use some of them, what uses the Section Designation parameter, what uses the Shape Width parameter, etc.)?

 

My apologies for the long post but I am trying to thoroughly understand this process becuase I need to do this a few times and I don't want to screw anything up and I certainly don't want to waste a bunch of time doing this several times to fix all my mistakes.

 

Thanks for the help!

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
Laptop: Intel Core i7 3.9GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro SP-1, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 780 (331.81), SpaceNavigator (3.17.7)
Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 2 of 11 (567 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-10-2012 09:23 AM in reply to: jeanchile

Okay, after some more research, I have found a couple answers to some of my questions. I found another tutorial/blog post from Mark Flaylor (thanks again for your help), but this one was about custom notching. It didn't specifically answer some of my questions but the way Mark illustrated his workflow it indirectly takes care of some of the items on the list.

 

He manually types in the standard information and creates his own so I am going to do that. That effectively takes care of my question 1, parts a through e. I will use the ANSI standard governing the material and create my own custom standard based on the manufacturer's information.

 

I would still love any information y'all can offer on the second question on my list. In every tutorial/youtube video/blog post I can find, they all skip that part and don't enter any information. I understand that it shouldn't matter for the Frame Analysis tools, but what else uses this information that everyone is skipping?

 

Sorry for the long posts, I realize that is likely why I haven't seen any responses. Thank you all in advance for your time.

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
Laptop: Intel Core i7 3.9GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro SP-1, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 780 (331.81), SpaceNavigator (3.17.7)
Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 3 of 11 (565 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-10-2012 09:24 AM in reply to: jeanchile

Oh, and I found the Mark Flayler blog post here if anyone else comes across this post.

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
Laptop: Intel Core i7 3.9GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro SP-1, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 780 (331.81), SpaceNavigator (3.17.7)
Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 4 of 11 (539 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-11-2012 09:15 AM in reply to: jeanchile

Okay, it's already a good day because I learned something new this morning. I found an answer to question 2a through trial and error. I didn't know that you could enter exponents in the unit/type column in the parameter window. That made the units work for my parameter matching. I thought my only options were the ones in the list (I always thought it was funny that the only unit type for area was circular mils :smileyvery-happy:).

 

Units Formatting.png

 

Anyway, that takes care of most of my questions. Really the only things left on the list are 2b & 2c which can be summarized by the following:

 

How do I know which parts of the program use which parameter mapping? So I can tell which areas are affected by my inputs. Is it just the beam/column calculators or what?

 

In every single tutorial I have seen, the presenter skips over the parameter mapping (except length) as though it is of no importance. Is that because it really isof no importance or because they didn't need it?

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
Laptop: Intel Core i7 3.9GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro SP-1, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 780 (331.81), SpaceNavigator (3.17.7)
Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 5 of 11 (527 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-12-2012 05:25 PM in reply to: jeanchile

Okay, I guess I've either stumped the experts here, was too lengthy in my explanations, or this really isof no importance and I shouldn't bother with it.

 

Where's Hugh when you need him? On Christmas sabbatical I imagine? Wait, did I just use sabbatical and Christmas in the same sentence...

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
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Mentor
RobJV
Posts: 574
Registered: ‎07-14-2004
Message 6 of 11 (506 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-19-2012 02:33 PM in reply to: jeanchile

I was under the impression that those other numbers don't do anything and Inventor calculates them from the actual physical model.

 

The help on this within Inventor is ridiculous.  I consider myself an expert and have done extensive CC editing in the past which was also horrible. 

 

What happens when you use published FG parts.  I get them all wrapped into one because the part number does not include length.  I also get other issues with the BOM with these.  Sorry to hijack this thread but maybe somebody could explain how to get the part number to appear like the other structural steel parts in FG.  Does the original part have to be an Ipart?   I have seen a pdf on this by cadmanto which I might have to use although I was hoping it was not going to be that complicated.

 

Rob

Mentor
RobJV
Posts: 574
Registered: ‎07-14-2004
Message 7 of 11 (504 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-19-2012 02:36 PM in reply to: RobJV

For the part numbering I will try going into CC editor and changing them there.

Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 8 of 11 (498 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-19-2012 03:25 PM in reply to: RobJV

Yeah, the part number thing is not an issue for us here because all of our part numbers are edited after the fact to a project specific/date specific number. Once we are done with the frame modeling, the BOM for the assembly is given a "once over" where all of the part numbers are defined there based off of the Mass property and some user defined stuff.

 

I agree, the help is not helpful in this area and every single presenter/youtube/blog segment just skips over them. One of the AD guys in his tutorial says "I'm gonna skip over all of these, I could tell you what these all mean and what they're for but they shouldn't matter for publishing the part"... Shouldn't matter to who? They might matter to me! I don't have any idea if they matter because I don't know their use.

 

I have published the part but I haven't used it or analyzed a frame with it yet. I'm still working out some CC/FG bugs before I go crazy publishing everything I need to do.

 

No one responded to my Custom Notch post... I'm gonna resurrect that one too.

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.4GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Ultimate SP-1, 64-bit OS, (2) GeForce GTX 580 (331.81), Space Pilot Pro (3.16.1)
Laptop: Intel Core i7 3.9GHz, 16.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro SP-1, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 780 (331.81), SpaceNavigator (3.17.7)
Valued Mentor
jeanchile
Posts: 783
Registered: ‎11-10-2009
Message 9 of 11 (495 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-19-2012 03:28 PM in reply to: RobJV

RobJV wrote:

Sorry to hijack this thread but maybe somebody could explain how to get the part number to appear like the other structural steel parts in FG.  Does the original part have to be an Ipart?   I have seen a pdf on this by cadmanto which I might have to use although I was hoping it was not going to be that complicated.

 

Rob


Here's some stuff I have been using for a while from some helpful guys here on the forum. Curtis if you're out there you need to write a book just on this frame generator stuff:smileywink:!

Inventor Professional 2013 (SP-2.3), Product Design Suite Ultimate
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Distinguished Contributor
cadman777
Posts: 946
Registered: ‎06-30-2005
Message 10 of 11 (23 Views)

Re: Structural Shape Authoring, Frame Analysis, Section Property Mapping

12-11-2014 10:01 AM in reply to: jeanchile

Hugh says (I can't recall where in the forum he says it) that the FA tool takes the sketch profile and calculates all the necessary data it needs.

In contrast, the FEA tool uses boundary analysis, and doesn't need the standard ASD data.

But the caveat is the FA automatically works with only circular closed shapes.

If you try using the FA for open shapes (like Wbeams or Channels), you need to use the custom drop-down and fill in the dimensions to supply the Wk value (Torsional Section Modulus), and the Jk (Torsion Rigidity Modulus) value (which the program auto-calcs for you).

Also, he said that even if you included the Wk & Jk values in your part's iproperties, the FA won't transfer them into its environment to use, b/c it relies on the sketch profile to get all of it's needed info instead.

So, the SA needs the standard ASD iProperties in the part file, but the FEA doesn't.

Hope this helps ... Chris

 

... Chris
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