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Quick Poll: Am I Crazy???

43 REPLIES 43
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Message 1 of 44
jeanchile
2375 Views, 43 Replies

Quick Poll: Am I Crazy???

Hello all,

 

We use Frame Generator a lot to create frames for our equipment supports as well as access platforms, etc. Most of the time these platforms are relatively small (20'-0" square or less, usually). I am working on a design that has multiple pieces of equipment and the access platforms are all going to be tied together into one larger frame.

 

I created the skeleton idea for what we need using sketches and I was thinking I would use FG for the whole thing. The sketch looks like this:

Crazy or No Pic.png

I occurred to me after I got this far (it's not complete yet but it's close) that I may be completely nuts.

 

Has anyone ever done anything this big in Frame Generator before?

 

We need to create AISC/NISD compliant fabrication drawings of each piece and we usually use some other company's software to do this but I HATE that program and I want to get rid of it completely. My ability to do that depends on whether IV can handle something this large and remain stable. Any thoughts, workflows, etc?

Inventor Professional
43 REPLIES 43
Message 21 of 44
japike
in reply to: jeanchile

Nice work - very impressive. And thanks for the thread. I read this very carefully and got lots of good stuff from it.

Peace,
Jeff
Inventor 2022
Message 22 of 44
jeanchile
in reply to: japike


@japike wrote:

Nice work - very impressive.


Thank you. I just looked it up and it took 247.48 hours to complete the framing and drawings. That's a bit longer than if I had used one of our other programs but I learned a lot and it was nice not having to deal with all the different file types and junk that comes with using the other software.

 

Here's what it looks like without the raised pattern floor plate:

No RPFP.jpg

Inventor Professional
Message 23 of 44
HO-AD
in reply to: jeanchile

Hi guys. I've been using inventor for about a year now in the oil / gas industry. I do alot of piping and pressure vessels, which works out great with inventor. But we also get large structural platforms, walkways, and pipe racks which I do with inventor but it drives me nuts sometimes.

 I do a skeleton part file

 

Drop in all of my beams with FG

 

Trim/ cope as needed

 

Design all different sheer plates, gusset plates, stiffeners and angle clip connections. (This is the most time consuming and laborious task)

 

I do a lot of mirroring of connection when possible. I try to ground everything to avoid a “unresolved constraint” nightmare.

 

I then create sketches on the faces of the structural members and project all the hole centers and use the hole tool to make all my holes

 

By now I’ve had a design change and am getting “invalid sketch axis origin”, “unresolved sketch geometry” etc.

 

I get all that sorted out and shrink-wrap the main framing members.

 

I create the handrails and stairs in a separate assembly using the shrink-wrap part

 

Then I shrink-wrap those and place them back into the original assembly to make the bolt holes. Oh and I make sure I break the link on the shrink-wrap parts to avoid a cycle.

 

Then I proceed to the mind-numbing process of breaking my assembly into levels of detail for each individual part (beam/ column w/ plates/clips). For any of you who has tried to break the frame into LODs you know what I’m talking about. You can’t select individual structural members in the assembly environment; you have to select them individually from the tree.

 

Then I do my drawings with balloons. It takes me about 30 minutes to straighten out the BOM.

 

Theirs probably other parts to my workflow but those would be the main parts. Anyone in the US use ASI profile? It looks like this would speed things up quite a bit.

 

Anyone have any suggestions or questions for me? It looks like a lot of you are dealing with issues like I’m dealing with. Or if you’re not any tips/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

Paul

Message 24 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: HO-AD

"You can’t select individual structural members in the assembly environment"

 

You can do this by changing your "Component Priority" to "Select Part Priority"

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 25 of 44
A_Harro
in reply to: cadman777

.. now if only we could get an automated Staircase or ladder add in... this is as time consuming as doing a whole structure.!

🙂

 

Message 26 of 44
jeanchile
in reply to: jeanchile

We have ways that we have streamlined both of those as well but it's quite an investment in time to set up. We have a "vertical circulation" library that has 26 different ladder types and 14 different stair types. Each "type" is controlled by an individual skeleton file that has all the parameters (elevations, tread depth, header sizes, etc.). We just use design assistant to copy the ones we need into the project, link some parameters, and we're off. Drawings are done when the copy is complete (with a couple of clean-up edits).

It works pretty slick but man did it take some investment to get it all set up.
Inventor Professional
Message 27 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: jeanchile

Jean,

 

Nice hearing from you again.

 

I find it encouraging to hear your methods.

The reason is b/c your methods are the same as mine.

I never took software training, but I learned the product and used it year after year, trying different methods to accomplish my tasks.

Every now and then I came into this forum and gleanded a method or 2 from some smart fellow who added to my 'bag of tricks'.

I even discovered a few undocumented functions on my own, and integrated them into my work-flow.

My biggest goal is alway to devise ways of doing things that don't 'break' after an update or change, as well as simple and quick ways to make major changes to a design.

So, your words have confirmed that I'm making the best use of the program to attempt to do steel design and detailing.

 

Unfortunately, due to work load, I have not created the library yet.

Plus, I need to reformat all the CC parts for my BOMs.

Very few 'loose ends' remain for me at the end of project work, which enables me to 'bang-out' projects with minimal to no errors.

 

The way I 'reuse' stairs and ladders is to I forrage around in previous projects to find one already done, and do exactly as you do:

Pack-and-Go the files into the new project folder, and then use the DA to change file names.

I hate Vault, and refuse to use it. No loss there!

The manual method works better, is simpler, doesn't bog down the computer, and doesn't require a new set of procedures.

 

I hate the FG b/c it constantly breaks when I have to change my design.

That requires deleting members and creating new ones.

That always results in lost FG features, wasted time, etc.

BUT I'd like to try using your methods w/FG, if I can understand them.

The biggest issue w/me at this point is getting the iFeatures to work on parts and not 'break' when the model adjusts or changes.

 

Since all my work is custom design work, it's critical that every part and assembly/sub is driven off the main sketch wireframe/parameters.

That way, everything is interconnected and parameter/formula-driven, with a myriad of relationships between all the parts.

Tanks and other vessels + structures are the most difficult, esp. if they have platform/h.r./ladders.

Doing it that way, I can make any change necessary with the press of a button in the main sketch, and be faced w/only minor edits in the idw files.

 

I sure wish I could learn how to use FG like it's Advance Steel or TEKLA!

 

You've convinced me that I need to allocate time to build my library of stairs/ladders/platforms, structural connection iParts, and structural member end treatments and weld prep. The biggest hurdle is the various standards that the different customers use in their plants and mining operations.

Otherwise, I do exactly what you do. The toughest jobs are the h.r. that's made w/angle instead of pipe. So many copes, and holes and all that added garbage. Amazing how buraucrats can complicate an otherwise simple matter!

 

One thing I discovered 'in my travels' is NOT to use surfaces in the skeletal files.

They bog the computer like nothing you've ever seen.

And the further they are away from the parent sketch (such as a hopper sketch built on top of a derived conveyor work surfaces), the worse the wait when an update occurs. I've had projects where the program stall for up to 10 seconds per key stroke in such cases, which kills the whole job. Luckily, those edits were at the very end of the job, and I never had to revisit them. But I'm sure you know what I mean. I also discovered that I can only go derived part/sketches deep in any given part, or IV chokes! So most of the time I use one parent sketch for the General Arrangement, and then derive that in every subassembly sketch, which gets derived into each part of that sub. I've had over 1000 part (not including fasteners) GA's w/little performance loss.

 

The other huge hassle w/the FG is BOM's ("Parts List") in the idw files.

There are many other issues I have w/FG, which is why I usually use it only for pipe member h.r. and other kinds of weldments that require no individual member detailing. Otherwise, I hate FG!

 

Also, end treatments is near impossible due to the variety of cuts and whatnot that coped/welded connections require.

Have you resolved this w/iFeatures, or some other way?

 

Anyways, see attached a couple examples of stuff I've done using "my" method.

 

Cheers ...

 

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 28 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: cadman777

 
... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 29 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: cadman777

 
... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 30 of 44
HO-AD
in reply to: cadman777

Wow since I last posted on this thread we have purchased Advance Steel. Let me say this its great for modeling macros are awesome for handrail and stairs. Dont get me wrong some of its weird to me because of the european origins but it saves time. Where advance steel has failed is with the drawings. I have had a hellacious nightmare trying to put drawings together. The auto drawings are garbage out of the box for what we do. Everything trys to auto update when you make changes and cause hours more work fixing it back. Also I'm disapointed with Graitec. The documentation they have is few and far between and they will only go so far with you with customer support which their is a large annual fee for BTW. Then they want you to pay them more for "customization" which is total BS since we already paid out the @$$ for the software. They offer training to customize their drawing styles but that cost an arm and a leg also...I miss the slick intellegent interface of Inventor. Why wont someone make a package for inventor with conections and stair macros!?

Utterly frustrating..

Message 31 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: HO-AD

I just got thru talking w/the AS rep, and he tells me that the stand-alone version is $12k and the version you use if you already have Autocad 2015 is $9k.

To me, that's WAY too expensive.

 

I inquired of SDS2 the other day, and they want $5600k ANNUAL subscription (meaning the softwire times-out at year's end!), and a whopping $30k for perpetual license.

 

Talk about EXTORTION!

 

That is why I'm glad for the affirmation of people like Jean.

 

Thanx for the interesting and informative discussion ...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 32 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: julesgf

jules,

What method do you use for applying end treatments when using the top level skeletal file?

Thanx ...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 33 of 44
DanielCTurcotte
in reply to: HO-AD

Hey,

 

There's an add-on that already exist that gives us the ability in inventor to automaticly do handrails, stairs and other structural connections called ASI-Profile.

As i understand it, The company that offer this program was the original creator of frame generator in inventor. I`m guessing that`s the only reason why inventor is not upgrading much frame generator each year. Its not technicly theres, its only borrowed.

 

Regards 

Inventor Version: 2022
Message 34 of 44
jeanchile
in reply to: HO-AD


@HO-AD wrote:

 

Utterly frustrating..


Those two words describe all  of the products that are available for this. Which is why we went the route we did. I am quite happy with the results we get and the times we are seeing now. That platform that I show in this post took me (alone) almost 250 hours to complete but a lot of time on that was spent creating some the library components I am speaking of (bracing in particular). I created a similar platform a couple of weeks ago that only took me about 8 working days start to finish. That's very comparable to what we were seeing with our other programs. We looked into the ASI programming a while ago and decided against it because not everything they do is AISC/NISD compliant and we wanted more freedom for things to be per our design. It looked pretty slick 5 years ago though, haven't looked at it since. For all of this to work so well at our office there are some very key things though:

 

1.) You have no choice but to create your own CC library with not only the BOM stuff set the way you need but also:

   a. In order to use the Beam & Column Calculator and Frame Analysis tools correctly you need to get the physical properties all set up

   b. The dimensions of the WF shapes in the CC Library are actually different than the AISC dimensional profiles (by small amounts but if you want them to match your steel manual, you need to change them)

   c. you have to take advantage of the alternate notch profile

       Notch.PNG

2.) You need to "bite the bullet" and create your own library of features/parts/assemblies

   a. You need fasteners that have the bolt, nut, and washer (no threads) all as one simple iPart

   b. You need a library of iFeatures for all AISC compliant Copes, Cuts, Blocking (e.g. no welding in the "k" region, 1/2" re-entrant corners, weld access holes, etc.)

   c. You need connection libraries for all the AISC compliant tabled connections (we don't use all of them)

   d. You need libraries of your standard vertical circulation

3.) You need to accept the fact that not everything you do will automatically update when changes occur and develop procedures that account for the things that don't when revisions happen

4.) You need to write procedures that take advantage of your design steps and the failings of FG

   a. You have systems that put certain functions at a location where they will do the least damage during the process. E.G. holes are not adaptive in our process and are the very last thing to go in. They are put in manually using non-adaptive-projected-geometry (i.e.CTRL-Select) where we project the holes from the connection elements into the frame members and then add a center point. If the hole moves in a design revision we delete the projected geometry (NOT THE CENTER POINT), re-project the new geometry, and re-constrain the centerline to the new geometry.

   b. Bolted Connections using the generator are just not going to happen on that scale so we use iparts/iAssemblies and the process above.

   c. We use "Promote/Demote FG Components" almost exclusively (because AD still  has not allowed us to filter parts list quantities by view reps) but in some cases we can use View Representations (we never use LOD's).

5.) DOCUMENTATION...DOCUMENTATION...DOCUMENTATION! Don't figure all of this out without spending the time to document the entire process and produce steps for new resources. I can sit someone down at our office in front of IV and have them producing these types of designs very easily and following the exact procedures we need.

 

And any time you come across a need to use angle shapes in your guardrail system (through someone else's standards, or previous designs on site, etc.) you need to lobby like crazy to get that changed. I'm not sure who the "genius" was that ever decided using an L2 1/2 x 2 1/2 for guardrail designs was a good idea but he deserves to be drug out of the office and beaten like the fax machine in Office Space (the movie). There is no economy on the material side and all it does is make everyone's life suck (mine, the fabricator, the erector, the guy who leans against it, the guy who runs his finger along the outside edge while he is walking...EVERYONE!)... sorry got off point there but you get the idea.

 

The bottom line is this: Inventor is not the tool for this. It's not set up correctly for this kind of work, it's inherent features are not compliant for anyone building with steel in the United States, the drawing creation side is incredibly cumbersome when you need to create over a thousand drawings for something that is going to be built once and nvere again, etc. etc. But, it can be very useful for those who want to make the investment. We chose to do this because we were tired of using 9 different software programs to do what we needed and we were tired of paying the bloated fees for something that also wasn't entirely correct.

 

Hope this helps everyone (anyone? someone?).

Inventor Professional
Message 35 of 44
jeanchile
in reply to: jeanchile

Wow.... Type much there TolstoySmiley Wink.... I guess I better go get some work done or something.

Inventor Professional
Message 36 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: DanielCTurcotte

Rasckel,

Thanx for that valuable piece of info.

Do you have a valid contact in the USA for ASi Profile?

Thanx ...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 37 of 44
DanielCTurcotte
in reply to: cadman777

Chris,

 

I'm sorry, but i was just put in charge to test out that software, seeing what would be the cons and the good points of this.

I was not told (my employer) who were there contact. The thing about being more or less the original creator of frame generator was a slip-up given in theyre tutorial pdf`s.

 

Here`s a link to theire home site.

 

http://asi-profile.de/englisch/product/  

 

 

Inventor Version: 2022
Message 38 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: jeanchile

Tolstoy ...

 

Nice diatribe!


"... the guy who runs his finger along the outside edge while he is walking ..."


Takes some getting used'to walking down stairs and around platforms w/h.r. like that! (and I don't even work there!)

 

Thanx for the clarifications.

 

The thing that sucks is when stuff breaks in FG, which is my biggest beef.

I learned long ago to use workpoints and workaxes, and let the sketch break, so the hole doesn't get lost.

But that's not possible all the time, and the cleanup time in multi-revision scenarios is rediculous.

Plus, on one job last year, there were so many holes (I believe over 2000), that using FG nearly killed me.

So, after a couple days, I started the job from scratch, and switched to arrayed parts (beams already coped and holed).

NOT ONE HOLE WAS MISPLACED.

That saved the computer from bogging and my hair from falling out.

Pretty much, the things you describe are all the things I've discovered over the years ... and much more.


I'm still on 2010, so don't have "Apply notch profile".
How much added benefit is the "Apply notch profile" command in later versions of this program?

Can that be done w/iFeatures?

I really wanna find out how you guys make iFeatures work on all kinds members for end treatments and weld-prep.

I've not been able to get it to work yet.

Example:

The job of the pic I attached showing the mining tub-on-structural-frame-skid was galvanized.

I tried like crazy to create a 'rat hole' to use at the vertex where the flange i.s. face and the web face and the beam end merge.

No success, VERY frustrating!

Any idea how to accomplish that?

The iFeature problem is what made me quit trying to do end treatments using them, and continue the laborious task of doing them manually.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanx ...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 39 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: DanielCTurcotte

Thanx!
... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 40 of 44
cadman777
in reply to: jeanchile

Jean,

 

It's a pretty amazing structure for IV. Nice Job!

I've been delving into the structural side of IV for the past 3 months, and find it quite a challenge.

 

I'm curious:

 

1. Can I see some screen shots of the details/joints in that 3d model?
I want to see what FG is capable of in your Release of IV.

I'm currently on IV2010Suite, and don't plan on upgrading unless the ROI is worth it.

 

2. Also, can I see some screen shots of the idw detais you've done for typical beams, connections, and so forth?
I'm curious how IV is handling that.

 

3. Also, did you create a structural Line Diagram in the idw file, the way we did it in the olden days?
I've been trying to do that for the engineers to use b/c all the 3d stuff gets in the way during the design/engineering phase.

Along those lines, I've been trying to come up w/a way to attach to the lines in the FG sketch the beam sizes, so they can be tagged w/the idw leader as a parameter and be automatic Mark No's in the Line Diagram. I want to drive all this w/an Excel spreadsheet. Ever try that?

 

My goal is to make the program recycle the metadata, which I put in one place and change there when an engineering change order comes down the line. That way, I won't go nutz chasing down all the changes in the model and in the many drgs that the shop uses.

 

Have you gone to this level in IV and w/the FG?

 

Thanx

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator

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