New Subscription Contract

Anonymous · ‎10-13-2003

You guys might want to read this VERY carefully. There's some scary stuff
in here.

http://www.adskimgs.net/1941/TSandCSeng.pdf

--
Sean Dotson, PE
http://www.sdotson.com
Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
www.sdotson.com/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous · ‎10-13-2003

> ... if you wish to reinstate an expired Subscription, you must
> purchase both the then-current Release and a Subscription
> for that Release.

Not to defend Autodesk, but has this not always been the case?

Dave

xavierl · ‎10-13-2003

yes, according to my subscription contract that is nothing new.
so if you are 1 month late, you buy 2 years worth of subcription to get back in. now wont it be cheaper from there on to only buy upgrades???an upgrade is roughly 10% of software cost and subscription is about 20% and with 1.5 new versions per year, the logical answer is just buy upgrades.
regards
frans x liebenberg
cape town (somewhere in sub-saharan africa)

Anonymous · ‎10-13-2003

> 2.3 AUTODESK DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT IT WILL MAKE
> AVAILABLE, AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU MAY NOT
> RECEIVE, ANY EXTENSION, RELEASE, ANCILLARY PRODUCT
> OR ANCILLARY SERVICE DURING THE TERM OF YOUR
> SUBSCRIPTIONS.

This has always been the case. I think it has been upated to include the
"ancillary" products and services (you know... the red carpet treatment in
Las Vegas) recently purported to add value to the subscriptions. And it has
disturbed me from the onset of the subscription (dis)service that cstomers
actually buy into this. My impression is that most customers (to the known
benefit of Autodesk) never have read the agreement never mind understand
this clause.

Furthermore, to market subsciptions (as Autodesk does) proclaiming it to be
the best sense business option for its customers and then having this clause
within the agreement illustrates perfectly the back-handedness of the
business ways of Autodesk.

Dave

Anonymous · ‎10-13-2003

I thought it was worded differently before. In that they don't promise a
new release will be released in the time frame of your contract. That I
have no problems with.

However the way this is written, even if they do release a new version they
don't have to make it available to subscription customers.

Perhaps I'm reading it differently than you.

--
Sean Dotson, PE
http://www.sdotson.com
Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
www.sdotson.com/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"David Radlin" wrote in message
news:1D6A7A5A221BD38174EE0975B8C87748@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > 2.3 AUTODESK DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT IT WILL MAKE
> > AVAILABLE, AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU MAY NOT
> > RECEIVE, ANY EXTENSION, RELEASE, ANCILLARY PRODUCT
> > OR ANCILLARY SERVICE DURING THE TERM OF YOUR
> > SUBSCRIPTIONS.
>
> This has always been the case. I think it has been upated to include the
> "ancillary" products and services (you know... the red carpet treatment in
> Las Vegas) recently purported to add value to the subscriptions. And it
has
> disturbed me from the onset of the subscription (dis)service that cstomers
> actually buy into this. My impression is that most customers (to the
known
> benefit of Autodesk) never have read the agreement never mind understand
> this clause.
>
> Furthermore, to market subsciptions (as Autodesk does) proclaiming it to
be
> the best sense business option for its customers and then having this
clause
> within the agreement illustrates perfectly the back-handedness of the
> business ways of Autodesk.
>
> Dave
>
>

Anonymous · ‎10-13-2003

To qualify for upgrades, you normallly need to
have an active subscription contract.

(AFAIK anyway)

Rui

"fxlxd" <
href="mailto:xavierl@iafrica.com">xavierl@iafrica.com> wrote in message

href="news:f1929d4.21@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f1929d4.21@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">yes,
according to my subscription contract that is nothing new.
so if you are 1
month late, you buy 2 years worth of subcription to get back in. now wont it
be cheaper from there on to only buy upgrades???an upgrade is roughly 10% of
software cost and subscription is about 20% and with 1.5 new versions per
year, the logical answer is just buy upgrades.
regards
frans x
liebenberg
cape town (somewhere in sub-saharan
africa)

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

I didn't want this to get lost in the other thread...

I guess I should have check my facts before I opened my big mouth...

Items 3.2 and items 2.3 are EXACTLY the same as the previous contract. I
don't know why I didn't notice this before as I've read the contract
many times.

My apologies to all including Autodesk. My face is red....(I'll slink away
now)

(I still don't like section 2.4 and I still don't agree with the wording of
section 2.3)

--
Sean Dotson, PE
http://www.sdotson.com
Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
www.sdotson.com/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sean Dotson" wrote in message
news:76AD1E96AB7C7F19C6D0A45447A1BFB7@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> You guys might want to read this VERY carefully. There's some scary stuff
> in here.
>
> http://www.adskimgs.net/1941/TSandCSeng.pdf
>
> --
> Sean Dotson, PE
> http://www.sdotson.com
> Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
> www.sdotson.com/faq.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

>...they don't promise a new release will be released in the
> time frame of your contract. That I have no problems with.

I do and always have had a problem with this.

I do concur that the way it has been re-written is even more DANGEROUS.

When Autodesk claimed they were "beefing up subscription", what they really
meant was they were "beefing up the subscription contract" (what's that
smell?).

Dave

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

You don't need a subscription to "buy" an upgrade,
though having a subscription "buys" you the upgrade.

Dave

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"RuiF" <rui.cad@netcabo.pt>
wrote in message
href="news:4F7E6D150A2947FDB6528DC0C55610BD@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:4F7E6D150A2947FDB6528DC0C55......

To qualify for upgrades, you normallly need to
have an active subscription contract.

(AFAIK anyway)

Rui

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

Offer no apologies, Sean. Whether or not the clauses have changed is
inconsequential. Their wording (old or new) should cause alarm and you are
rightfull in highlighting them.

The contract only serves Autodesk in stripping all rights and expectations
from its customers. I am aware on no other industry that disparages and
abuses its customers as this one.

Dave

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

Dave,

I do agree that the wording of the contract is something to be worried
about. However there is nothing new in this except the "electronic
eavesdropping" clause so my post was a bit too dramatic for things that
haven't changed.

That being said, the whole subscription thing is getting on my nerves. It
seems that they have found a way to make more money and are milking it for
everything it's worth.

--
Sean Dotson, PE
http://www.sdotson.com
Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
www.sdotson.com/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"David Radlin" wrote in message
news:75662371DB1F3FD3849DE48C765E4D97@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Offer no apologies, Sean. Whether or not the clauses have changed is
> inconsequential. Their wording (old or new) should cause alarm and you
are
> rightfull in highlighting them.
>
> The contract only serves Autodesk in stripping all rights and expectations
> from its customers. I am aware on no other industry that disparages and
> abuses its customers as this one.
>
> Dave
>
>
>

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

> ...a way to make more money and are milking it for
> everything it's worth.

Amen.

Dave

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

The agreement is pretty tough, essentialy the SW industry can get away with murder. Without comparing it to the old one I can tell you it sounds like the same verbage to me. Customers ought to read those EULAs and TnBs before they agree.

I will say this, due to economic conditions we were forced to discontinue subscription for a while around the R5 timeframe. When things improved some Adsk worked very hard at coming up with a solution for us that would get us on the current version and subscription at an appealing price. I can't fault them for that, their attitude was that of a partner trying to work with us.

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

Does anyone have any idea what the other SoftWare guys subscription contract
is like?
"David Radlin" wrote in message
news:62B5F6597BD912E75BE0A4B7D2565E75@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > ...a way to make more money and are milking it for
> > everything it's worth.
>
> Amen.
>
> Dave
>
>

xavierl · ‎10-14-2003

when your subscription has lapsed, to get back on to subscription, you have to buy an upgrade to the current version plus the subscription.
just a legal point :: you never own software, you only buy permission to use it. in law, you can not take legal action about something that you dont own. clever huh..
regards, frans x liebenberg.

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

Yes I do. Unfortunately its about the same. My experience was with ProE. My
main beef at the time was the BASE package included the motion and animation
extensions, but our old license didn't. When I ask about getting the items
that were now in the base package I was told it would be a 5000$ "upgrade"
fee and then only continued maintenance. Now, the really bad part, we paid
$20K per license (in 1995), the base package now cost $5000, and we had
current maintenance all that time!. I considered that unfathomable, the
sales guy had a hard time understanding why I was upset, he said "it's the
cost of doing business". PTC did give us much more than Autodesk in the way
of support, bug reporting and patches, but I don't think it was worth it.

It almost makes more sense to not be on maintenance and upgrade every other
release, if you can get away with it.

So Adesk is better than some, but still not acceptable.

Dave

"Albert Allen" wrote in message
news:3E25E3D10AFDD393F590C7D93C6AAD8E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Does anyone have any idea what the other SoftWare guys subscription
contract
> is like?
> "David Radlin" wrote in message
> news:62B5F6597BD912E75BE0A4B7D2565E75@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > ...a way to make more money and are milking it for
> > > everything it's worth.
> >
> > Amen.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
>

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

This wording will only mean something when a company balks, and the case
ends up in court. That they put something in a contract does
necessarily make it binding until a judge says so.

Sean Dotson wrote:
> You guys might want to read this VERY carefully. There's some scary stuff
> in here.
>
> http://www.adskimgs.net/1941/TSandCSeng.pdf
>
> --
> Sean Dotson, PE
> http://www.sdotson.com
> Check the Inventor FAQ for most common questions
> www.sdotson.com/faq.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

"David Radlin" wrote in message
news:0057DF34564AEC58B5B723FE5CC645A0@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> You don't need a subscription to "buy" an upgrade, though having a
subscription "buys" you the upgrade.

Unless they change the name.

>
> Dave
> "RuiF" wrote in message
news:4F7E6D150A2947FDB6528DC0C55610BD@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> To qualify for upgrades, you normallly need to have an active
subscription contract.
> (AFAIK anyway)
>
> Rui

Anonymous · ‎10-14-2003

"I had the (xxxxx) package and when I ran it through the (xxxxxx) Auto License
update the (xxxxxx) became the (xxxxx) License for (xxxxxx) and it included
the advanced surface and advanced assembly extensions..."

I've blanked out the product names in the hopes this entire thread won't be
deleted. If you want I'll email a link to the discussion (relevant to your
experience) the above was extracted from, not that it will do any good now.
My whole point is: don't confuse the past with the present. The world is a
fast changing place, life is a wheel, etc.

I'm not going to go into what I've invested in (paid for) Adesk products (not
quite the 20K, but not too far off) and what I think the sum of that
investment is currently worth. The whole situation is a mess and I don't
expect it to get any better. If time proves me to be wrong... well, it won't
be the first time.

Re EULA agreements and subscription / maint contracts in general.... They
are all weighted heavily against the end user. With the exception of
something radical (like the rent / lease agreements software vendors would
love to shove (EDITED by moderator - Anne) I think the focus should
remain on what your dollar buys, present day, vs what the competition has to
offer.

My personal feelings about subscriptions is that they better offer a lot in
day to day problem solving services. Trends (sorry, I've got to disregard my
own advice about the value of past performance) in software development and
prices indicate that paying for updates before the fact simply isn't cost
effective.

====================

New Subscription Contract

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