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New IV-2011 Workstation Recommendations

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Message 1 of 15
WORKSTATIONresearch
1820 Views, 14 Replies

New IV-2011 Workstation Recommendations

Hi,

 

I need to upgrade to a new workstation in order to run IV 2011.  Upon contacting my Reseller’s support person I was sent a link to “certified” workstations that Autodesk provides.  Unfortunately most of the list consists of laptop workstations and the current project couldn’t be handled by any laptop.  There are a few tower workstations on the list consisting of Dell T3500, and T7500.  The problem with the test protocol is that it states the datasets for the test were for “medium-small datasets”.  This indicates to me that it would not apply to my much larger project goals.

 

http://www.inventor-certified.com/graphics/SV15_vend.pdf

 

Can anyone please provide a listing of tower workstations (in addition to the above).

 

I prefer Dell, at least to investigate initially.  I built my previous workstation, and may do so again if cost becomes prohibitive to gain enough performance.  The issue I have with Dell is that performance enhancements tend to raise the cost to such a level that the final result is not economically viable, which requires that I build it myself.  I estimate that the number of parts in the project (on the high side) is about 10,000.  Almost all of the parts are very simple, however, with some exceptions.  There are just a lot of them, and a BOM would probably be many sheets.

 

When these forums were run out of newsreaders there used to be a “hardware” forum.  Does something similar still exist?

 

As an added comment I would like to say that I thought the newsreader forums were much better than the webpage forums.  I haven’t visited a forum for quite a while, so maybe this change was forced upon Autodesk by available current newsreaders.

 

Wally

14 REPLIES 14
Message 2 of 15

Pursuant to building a workstation the following graphics card is being researched (nVidia Quadro FX 5000):

 

http://www.techeye.net/hardware/quadro-fx5000-pulls-out-all-the-graphics-stops]

 

How does this card differ from some of the other cards in the 5XXX family?

Does anyone have experience running this card?

What motherboard are you using (please provide complete mfg, model info)?

How much RAM is installed in your motherboard?

Approximately how large (number of parts) are the projects this card is able to handle in your projects?

Are you using an SSD (solid state drive) to run the OS?  If so, what is the capacity of your SSD?

 

I would appreciate an Autodesk moderator response if there is no one that posts here that has information on the above.

 

At some point, once I've done enough research to know how to approach Dell, I'm going to specially configure a system on their website to get cost information.  I suspect that I'll probably be able to reduce cost by about 40% by building it myself.  In any event I'll post my results for anyone following this subject in response to the feedback I receive.  I'm guessing that system cost through Dell will be around $7000, and that I'll be able to build it for about $4000.

 

TIA for replies,

 

Wally

 

Message 3 of 15
blair
in reply to: WORKSTATIONresearch

I used to use "certified" worksations, primarly Dell's. With the move the last number of releases to Direct3D from OpenGL has relaxed the graphics card requirements.

 

Our large assemblies push 3500 instances, the system handles them fine. We use multi-core CPU's due to other software (FEA) as well as we do a lot of rendering.

 

The next system might move from a Quadro FX card to a couple of gamming cards in SLI.

 

We use SSD cards in RAID0, extremely fast system reponse and Inventor load times as well as model load times.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 4 of 15

My experience is multi-HDD configuration better.

1 HDD - System

2 HDD - Data

3 HDD - TEMP, TMP, UNDO folders

4 HDD - pagefile

SSD & RAID0 are preferred for Data and System.

SSD can be used for current project only, use small size SSD in RAID0. Select latest SSD model.

12Gb DDR3 RAM as minimum in triple mode.

Message 5 of 15

Blair,

 

Thanks so much for the info.

 

On your comment, “…I used to use "certified" workstations, primarily Dell's. With the move the last number of releases to Direct3D from OpenGL has relaxed the graphics card requirements. …”

 

I would find it very risky to stray from any Inventor 2011 qualified graphics cards.  I may be misinterpreting your comment, however.

 

I’ll have to do some Internet browsing on your system to respond on anything I may have questions about.  I didn’t see a motherboard on your list.  The system I built  has a Supermicro P4SPA+ motherboard, which was a replacement for a failed Intel motherboard.  That will be the second thing to hone in on, the motherboard for the new nVidia graphics card.  Incidentally, the card in the current system is a PNY Quadro FX 4000 card, but with nVidia components, and is inadequate for the current project.  It seems that nVidia doesn’t actually do any mfg of cards, but rather has OEM cards built by companies like PNY.  Previously I had a 3Dlabs Wildcat card which failed, and Creative took over the company.  Creative, by the way, looks like they may disappear as well, just by observing the disarray on their website.

 

One thing that concerns me is the power consumption of these graphics cards.  The nVidia Quadro 5000 draws 152 Watts max.  That is a LOT of heat, just from the video card and not counting the processor.  My experience with my first system, which was prebuilt by Micron, was that heat ventilation was inadequate, and that caused a total of 4 graphics card failures (Diamond Fire GL 3000-acquired by ATL).  So I really went overboard when I decided to build my own system, and the Thermaltake case has a total of 7 fans (the original fans were replaced by 7 high capacity fans), not counting what is in the pwr sply, etc.  This eliminated any heat related failures.  I sound proofed the case, so it is fairly quiet, despite the number of fans.

 

I suspect if I was to buy a prebuilt Dell system that they would not provide a case that is adequate to remove the heat generated because of what I’ve been able to observe on their website.  Hopefully when I learn more details from Dell I’ll have to change my opinion, but it does look that they have a “one size fits all” policy for their cases.

Message 6 of 15

Thanks for the drive recommendations.  I probably would have had to learn the hard way about access to filles (as you say, "... current project only...").  I assume there are no issues saving the files to Vault from an SSD, however.

Message 7 of 15
blair
in reply to: WORKSTATIONresearch

Motherboard make and model are listed, EVGA, x58 Classified.

 

As long as the graphics card drivers are Microsoft WHQL, you shouldn't have a problem, not like the earlier versions of Inventor that required OpenGL. There is a good section within the drop-down help within Inventor2011 about graphics card-drivers.

 

I was really considering going with two of the Quadro GTX470 cards in SLI for this build, but settled on the single FX3800. Looking at the numbers, I would think that two or three of the GTX480 cards is SLI would be faster than a single Quadro ( I would really love to see numbers from an actual build). 

 

I am running a 1000w power supply, I have 4 of the large 120mm chassis fans directing the air from front-to-back on my machine with two additional 120mm fans in a push-pull configuration on the CPU cooler. This is an extremely quiet unit, I have to look at the power lights to tell if the unit is running.

 

The Lin case that I went with comes with sound material on the side panels. Removable and washable foam filters on the front of the case help with keeping dust out. With this case, I was able to locate my Power-Supply to the bottom and locate my graphics card in the middle of the air-flow of the main chassis fans. Temperature monitoring via the motherboard shows decent temperatures.

 

My last Precission 690 Dell, is extremely noisy and resides in my ``office`` at home. 


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Message 8 of 15

Hi Blair,

 

Thanks for the additional details.  I did check out the EVGA board after I realized that it was a mb, and it looks quite solid.

 

I did check out IV 2011 compatibility with nVidia Quadro 5000.  It is listed by Autodesk along with recommended drivers.  nVidia’s model numbering is a bit confusing.  They offer an nVidia Quadro FX 5800, which seem to be a later model than the 5000, but actually the 5000 is more recent.  The 5000 has less onboard memory, but all the other specs indicate that the 5000 is a faster card, and can handle larger files.  I don’t want to overspend, so I’m going to be asking questions of Dell and nVidia as to whether the 5800 will be just as suitable.

 

On your comment, “… I would really love to see numbers from an actual build. …”, On nVidia’s there is a performance comparison that tested most of the major CAD systems, including SolidWorks, but they didn’t test Inventor.  The test included a rundown of the hardware, and a number of graphics cards, the nVidia Quadro 5000 being one of them.  I find it strange that Inventor was not included.

 

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/11761/Product-Comparison-Oct2010.pdf

 

Have your taken any special precautions, since you are using an SSD drive to run the OS?   An SSD drive should be more reliable than a mechanical drive, but I’ve read that these drives are only good for so many read/write cycles.  Is it wise to have a dual boot installed with a backup OS on a mechanical drive in case the SSD drive quits?

 

I’ll check out your “Lin case”.  I believe I looked into these when I was specifying one, and ultimately went with a Thermaltake case.  It’s good to know that there is a case available that already takes care of the soundproofing.  I had to buy the soundproofing separately from Acoustipak.  It works OK but the adhesive tends to cause it to delaminate since it is double layered (to take care of different sound frequencies, I suppose).  My current case also has a multi-channel fan controller, but I usually just hit the “override button” and let the fans run full bore all the time.

 

Commenting on your power supply, I installed a PC Power & Cooling (OCZ Technology Grp) 610 Watt (EPS12V).  This seemed more than adequate, but I get a message every time I boot up that the nVidia card is not receiving adequate power, so it is going to reduce its performance accordingly.  I’m not sure if this is a power supply problem or not.  The warranty on the pwr sply is for 5 years.  I guess next time around I’ll have to double the capacity based on total max power draw of all devices.  I haven’t noticed any issues with graphic card performance degradation when using IV, but then again I’m not sure what I might be missing.

 

Wally

Message 9 of 15
blair
in reply to: WORKSTATIONresearch

Nothing special about the drives. All four are in RAID0, I do have a separate SATAII drive that is used for dedicated back-up to this drive. It's kind of redundant as we do full back-ups on our network each night at work. I also have a USB drive that all my data/files are Sync'd with as well, (helps for working at home as well).

 

Check connections on your graphics card, there should be a separate (above board) power connector on your graphics card (looks like a power plug for a hard-drive). This might not be connected properly to your graphics card. Or try a different power cable.


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Message 10 of 15

Thanks Blair fro the suggestions.

 

“…Check connections on your graphics card, there should be a separate (above board) power connector on your graphics card (looks like a power plug for a hard-drive). This might not be connected properly to your graphics card. Or try a different power cable. …”

 

I checked this multiple times when the insufficient power message came up right after I had installed the card.  I tried everything to get rid of the message.  I even disconnected all other power connectors not absolutely necessary to see if that might allow the power supply to give the graphics card what was required.  I don’t notice any impact on Inventor, other than the fact that the nVidia card is just not quite up to the task.  I was particularly careful to make sure this power cable was attached to the graphics card because the instructions stated that the card would be damaged if it wasn’t.  I do have a power supply tester and it doesn’t indicate any issues at the cable output.  SOooo?????

 

I’ll have to do a little research on your “RAID0” portion of your system.  I assume this is a way to get multiple drives to act as one in order to speed up read/writes.  I’m not sure why that would be helpful for my purposes if instead I rely on an SSD drive.  Or do you use “RAID0” to improve reliability of your data?

Message 11 of 15

I can recommend a company called workstation specialists who supply custom workstations/super computers for Inventor. Their prices are VERY competative against Dell precision workstations.

 

I bought 4 new workstations earlier this year for about half the price of the equivalent Dell precision workstation.

 

They know their stuff and don't try to sell you anything you don't need.

We have since used them for high spec servers as well.

 

Ronnie

Message 12 of 15
sam_m
in reply to: Ronnie_m

Whereas in the last 12 months I have dealt with a v similarly titled company, down to the spelling, and found them woeful in their Inventor knowledge (saying this, we're all in different places in the world so could be a different company, just with the same name - hate to bad-mouth anyone, let alone the wrong people).

 

My experience - they were determined to push workstation OpenGL graphics cards for Inventor stating OpenGL benchmarks with SPECviewperf - note Inventor has been using DirectX over OpenGL since Inventor 11, released in 2006, and pretty sure Dx was recommended over GL when you could toggle between them.  I questioned if Inventor still uses OpenGL (knowing it wasn't the case) and was told something along the lines that all cad like SolidWorks uses OpenGL so we need a workstation card (and offered the option of an ATI Fire card instead of Quadro, as if I wasn't happy about make of the graphics card)...  When I asked about gaming cards and requested DirectX benchmarks instead of OpenGL I received a number of untruths about Inventor and it's supposed inability to use gaming cards or make use of any hardware acceleration.

 

So, all in all, by stating comments about Inventor that were complete rubbish and assuming Inventor uses OpenGL their "specialist" information was at least 4 years too old and thus they impressed me greatly...

 

 

 

to the original poster:

You're unlikely to find benchmark details of Inventor for the Quadro cards alongside those of Solidworks/etc because (as mentioned above) Inventor uses DirectX for its graphics and the Quadro/Fire cards are specifically for OpenGL...  Not saying they won't work, it's just not their forté.



Sam M.
Inventor and Showcase monkey

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Message 13 of 15
blair
in reply to: Ronnie_m

Back on IV11 when you had a choice  of OpenGL or D3D, it did some bench marking in Inventor Studio for rendering. This was back on a Quadro FX1400 card.

 

With OpenGL a render in Studio took 42 seconds, using the same view and settings, but in D3D, the render took 41.5 seconds.

 

For what it's worth... that was then. The only reason I still use a OpenGL card Quadro FX3800, is some other FEA software and it likes OpenGL.

 

I am sure, that the next major release, it will be optimized for D3D as well.


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Message 14 of 15
Ronnie_m
in reply to: Ronnie_m

Probably the same company but in different parts of the world.

 

I'm in the UK and I was advised to spend my money on the fastest processor I could afford (Overclocked 4.2Ghz Dual core 2 with uprated cooling-fastest available at the time and the benchmarks in 3D magazine in the Uk were pretty cool) and also on the fastest hard drive I could afford. I couldn't stretch to SSD and settled on 10k drives.

 

The comparable Dell price was £2750 but we paid £1500

 

Ronnie

Message 15 of 15

Thanks for the tip. I'll check them out.

 

I'm sorry that it has taken a while to respond (this goes for all below who have answered my request for input).  I didn't notice that there was a second page of responses until today.  The newsreader Autodesk had before they went to this web page format was a LOT easier to navigate and overlooking new posts wasn't an issue.

 

So far the workstation I've priced using Dell's online customizaton tool gives me pricing that is through the roof.  And I'm having to pry the information out of them on their "one size fits all" case.  Today I received a notice that if I wanted to know the details about the fans installed in the case I would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to get the information.  REALLY! 

 

Dell has one case they use for everything and they expect a customer to literally buy a "PIG IN A POKE', as far as the case they supply.  The graphics card I'm considering uses 152 Watts max.  I'm not sure what the Dual Quad Xeon processor uses, but I'm sure it gets pretty hot as well.  The sales agent couldn't get the information initially from any of his online informaition, but had to physically inspect one of the cases to observe the ratings on the hubs of the fans (which information will not be supplied until I sign a NDA).  Buying high end computers from these outfits is worse than dealing with a used car dealer, IMHO, considering the fact the pricing could buy an inexpensive new automobile, or a used luxury model ( the details of which are not subject to a NDA).

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