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MDT files with Inventor 2013 - Autodesk's official statement how to proceed?

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Message 1 of 50
sam_m
4956 Views, 49 Replies

MDT files with Inventor 2013 - Autodesk's official statement how to proceed?

I've seen a couple comments on here (and the MDT section) plus Sean Dotson's site regarding MDT (and its files) and Inventor 2013 - due to concerns can we get an official statement from Autodesk how we are meant to manage our old data.

 

From my understanding Inventor 2013 has removed the MDT import optionm, presumably due to the end of MDT's support life - but surely the termination of MDT's support shouldn't terminate Inventor's support of those files?!?

 

To give you some understanding of my concern and reason for questioning - we have been manufacturing products for the last 60odd years, obviously before CAD and MDT, and we have those hand-drawn sketches for ref as/when needed - in the same way we still have our MDT data from the many years we used it prior to Inventor. Once in a blue moon we need to view this old data as components change (or become obsolete) and assess the need to update the product/assembly - if there are any changes then we import into Inventor and work with the data there. Almost as a rolling update as/when needed - and we have been working this way since about Inventor 6, but we still have a LOT of old MDT data that hasn't been converted which we may (or may not) need to access in years to come. Only this year I had some work evaluating updating an old product we've sold since 1998, so I had to go through the history of the product and can you guess what software that data was in?

 

How do Autodesk expect us (and the multitude of similar companies) to be able to access and assess our legacy data in the way we have up until now?

 

Yes, I know we have known for years that MDT was stopping with 2009 and its support would cease 3 years after, but I honestly believe support for MDT does not equal support for MDT files within Inventor.  Inventor is the valid/present software and has had the feature to access MDT data for years - therefore it is part of Inventor's support.  I am fully aware it has required the use of MDT to import data into Inventor but why hasn't there been the incorporation of MDT import into the core Inventor sofware with the termination of MDT support (even if it means a dumbed-down dumb-solids import instead of the full feature-history)? 

 

As far as I understand we are unable to even authorize our MDT2009 software if we needed to re-build a pc tomorrow - is that the case, even if we have had an ongoing subscription from the days of MDT?

 

I am greatful for any official statement/information from Autodesk regarding this. 



Sam M.
Inventor and Showcase monkey

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49 REPLIES 49
Message 2 of 50
kstate92
in reply to: sam_m

Here, here!

 

I guess long-term support of your own former data formats just doesn't have that sexy steak-sizzle their sales department demands for the brochures.  All we can hope for is that some cheeky competitor builds in seamless MDT imports into their core products; maybe -maybe- Autodesk will respond in kind.

KState92
Inventor Professional 2020
AutoCAD Mechanical 2022.0.1
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Message 3 of 50
Ray_Feiler
in reply to: sam_m

I looks like we will have to maintain both Inventor 2012 and Mechanical Desktop 2009 until all of our data has been converted. It's not a that big of a task for us but I know there are companies with huge datasets, some are even still using Mechanical Desktop.


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Message 4 of 50
ihiengdept
in reply to: kstate92

I completely agree.

 

Yup.  No Sparkles and sizzles to doing it.  I'm sure it's drudge work for them, but if they want to convince us that they are a company who stands by their products, it needs to get done.  They want to us to buy their subscriptions and tie our businesses to them, then they need to show they'll stand by their old data.  

 

I'm in an industry (like many of their other customers) with product cycles much longer than that of the digital world.  They need to understand that and get this resolved.  I won't lie and say I'm jumping ship today, but my loyalty is taking a big hit.  My ears are always open to better &/or cheaper alternatives and if they povide the conversion and support for our legacy files, I'll be able to seriously consider them.  

 

I want to believe in Autodesk, but for now I have to juggle business risks and be careful not to be tied so closely that it hurts the company down the road.

 

FYI:

Related thread on the same issues.

Message 5 of 50
spascual
in reply to: sam_m

Autodesk is missing about this.

 

Ups,

Message 6 of 50
mflayler2
in reply to: sam_m

The way the terms of your subscription read...and how I understand them...

 

You can continue to use MDT2009 indefinately with up to Inventor 2012 to perform the full translation of the files with feature to feature mapping.  Since MDT2009 is no longer supported due to legacy status that just means they are not programming it any more to work with the newer versions of Inventor and the translation of an MDT file requires MDT to be installed.  If you wanted this feature in Inventor 2013 then essentially you must have MDT installed with it and cannot expect it to just be in the software like a Catia translation that doesn't do the same thing as MDT translation.  Even with Inventor 2012 you need to install a special flavor of MDT2009 to get it to work properly.

 

You can still activate valid subscription licenses and any Standalone licenses (that were never on subscription) as of today as well, it just has to be a seat you have kept on subscription.  That is the hitch...you drop subscription, you drop the ability to do this.  Its true this process has been 9 years in the making and I understand the buisness case lined out in this thread, but it just means you can't go beyond 2012 with the translation effort and you would have to take a second step and migrate the files to a newer Inventor version if you wanted to stay up and current on your file scheme.

 

This MDT legacy question has been quite a fumble for Autodesk especially with it now becoming legacy.  I have users that just found out last year that MDT was going away.  Can you beleive that?  And previous discussion with Autodesk had always been contradictory on the subscription use where they would tell you that you could ONLY use 3 versions back, which if you have been on subscription for 5 years, technically in the agreement you can use 5 versions back to that date, not 3 at any given time.  This created a lot of mis-information about end of life and legality of even using MDT2009.

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Mark Flayler - Engagement Engineer

IMAGINiT Manufacturing Solutions Blog: https://resources.imaginit.com/manufacturing-solutions-blog

Message 7 of 50
sam_m
in reply to: mflayler2

I know that up until 2012 you have needed MDT installed to import MDT files but why?  I'm not after a technical "it's to look at feature x and recreate into Inventor" I'm more thinking the bigger question of why on earth has it needed MDT from the get go instead of being a stand-alone import like step/iges or the wealth of other cad software import tools that we now have like SolidWorks, Catia, etc.  Without this in place then how can AD remove the MDT import command without it being a massive problem for their long-term customers managing their old data?

 

I still stand by my statement that the MDT import command is an Inventor command, accessed in Inventor and thus falls under Inventor support and shouldn't be ignored because they're washing their hands of MDT.  If the powers that be chose Inventor import to call up MDT software then that was their choice - if they choose to discontinue MDT then they should have already set inplace a replacement to keep the same overall Inventor functionality.  It's frustrating because I've posted a few times in the last few years that the MDT import needs to be self-contained into Inventor to allow for it's easy termination... 

 

I know it's not ideal, but if it comes to it I imagine most of us would be happy with a dumb-solid featureless import instead of nothing - surely that's possible as the DWG viewer is able to view MDT files as 3d parts, so the MDT data is able to be rendered without MDT - why can't Inventor import these files using the same 3d code as the DWG viewer?

 

As for MDT licence...  My company has had an active subscription of a few seats for years (know they added my seat to their contract back in 2002), so obviously back well before MDT2009.  I'm pretty sure that if I managed to dig out an old copy of Inventor 6 (from the same constantly active subscription) it would fail authentication as I beleive I have read on here in the past that they terminate the authentication servers at a similar time to the termination of support.  If this is the case then this suggests that even if I rebuilt my pc tomorrow with Iv2012 and MDT2009 I might not be able to register MDT2009 (despite having a constant licence).  Has anyone tried to install MDT in the last week or 2, do we know this???  Even if it is able to register today then there will surely come a time that it wont - what happens then?

 

But what about other situations...  If we employ a new cad user tomorrow we would want their system to be installed the same as the rest - with MDT alongside Inventor (as we all access the same data-set).  We have had a constant subscription and are now wanting to add a new seat to it - it's now impossible to get MDT working for them?  Taking myself (and my company) out of the equasion; what about those that lapsed their Inventor subscription due to lack of funds (there's been a few problem years recently) but still have old MDT data - surely they're still entitled to access their old data?

 

I'm sorry to sound like a pain but I am really wanting AutoDesk to be part of this topic to explain how they expect long-term customers to work in the future.



Sam M.
Inventor and Showcase monkey

Please mark this response as "Accept as Solution" if it answers your question...
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Message 8 of 50
mflayler2
in reply to: sam_m

I activated a seat about three weeks ago, so that activation process has not been discontinued.

 

And you are right, it can import DWG solids in a dumb fashion like Catia and SW files, but for the translation to actually be there, you have to have MDT loaded working along side it.  In fact if the last software you open before translating is not MDT (lets says its AutoCAD Electrical), then it fails because it needs to call to MDT for certain things.  Things that would add an enormous amout of code to Inventor if it was in there by itself.  That is probably why it was never incorporated into the software because it was easier to call to the native program for mapping of features.

 

As for lapse in subscription...yes, that is a true folly here and those years when they are back up to speed with feel the most pinch from not staying current and not taking the time to get the models over to Inventor sooner.  Thats why we created a routine and a service for those clients to get files translated and keep the MDT heirchy, but that costs money compared to a company absorbing it in a daily work cycle.  We just translated 3000 files for a client into Inventor from MDT and resolved all the folders structures and links and it took time even with our programming.  Time that company didn't have to do it, but realized they needed those files going forward.

 

I don't think I would hold my breath waiting for an ADSK response on this one.

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Mark Flayler - Engagement Engineer

IMAGINiT Manufacturing Solutions Blog: https://resources.imaginit.com/manufacturing-solutions-blog

Message 9 of 50
kstate92
in reply to: sam_m

Buy one share of Autodesk stock, show up at the next shareholders meeting, and publicly raise this issue as a concerned stock holder and user.

 

Though these days, mere non-corporate humans probably aren't allowed at such events.

KState92
Inventor Professional 2020
AutoCAD Mechanical 2022.0.1
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit - 1903
Core i7-8700 32 GB Ram
Quadro P2000
Message 10 of 50
TravisNave
in reply to: kstate92

Buy one stock of Microsoft and ask why you can't run any 16-bit software anymore in Windows 7 and why they no longer support DOS 6.22.  It's ridiculous.  You might as well ask for Angry Birds for your Palm Pilot.  MDT life support was extended years ago and then was formally announced EOL back in 2008.  If you haven't taken the time to convert all of your drawings and learn the new software, then you only have yourself to blame.  Subscription allowed MDT 2009 to live until version 2012.  At some point, you have to cut the apron strings people.  Autodesk doesn't have to come here and weigh in on the issue.  They did it in 2008 and prior.  You should be happy they allowed the download and activation thru 2012 to give you time to migrate.  In fact, knowing that MDT was going away years ago, anybody who saved a single MDT drawing after the 2004 format should have had their head examined.  Now forgive me, but I have letters to write demanding support for my Commodore 64 and Atari. 

 

Smiley Very Happy

 

In the mean-time, enjoy this deprecated copy of 64-bit Inventor.  haha!

 

Inventor64.jpg



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Message 11 of 50
ihiengdept
in reply to: TravisNave

Shall I rise to the Flamebait,?  (Guru?!?  BTW, I enjoyed the image, Smiley Very Happy but lets keep the discussion on track.)  Allas, I am vain and weak.  Maybe I can bring some clarity to the issue.

 

No one here is asking that MDT continues to be supported indefinately.  I'm kind of surprised that one person mentioned there were users who didn't know it was going away untill recently.  I think he was implying that autodesk fumbled some communication issues.  I can't say I saw those since even as a newcommer it was obvious to me that MDT would not be around forever.  But I do understand his point that future & continued licensing of MDT under the subscription is more than a little confusing.

 

The topic I see this thread focusing on is the abiltiy to open old data files.  Give me an old word document made in windows 3.1, I'm willing to bet I could open it and save it as something new.

 

Unlike your anolgy to gaming platforms (although the DOS one is closer to being on target), Autodesk is serving many industries which have a product life cycles which are very long.  I think that gives them some obligation to continue allowing old data files to be opened, viewed, and ideally converted.  Even if you disagree on that point, can we keep the discussion on this particular topic?  

 

I know conversion is an option, but it has two problems 1) Initial time/Labor 2) risk.  No conversion goes perfectly and since no one has the time to check every file in a meaningful way, you're not going to find out untill it's too late. 

 

I don't have any strong oppinions on how they accomplish this in the future, but I would like to see it supported.  MDT 2009 as a software package is only relevant as Autodesk's chosen tool for conversions.   I'm sure autodesk has chosen to do it this way for many good reasons, but now if they stop distributing it key functionality that should be in Inventor will stop working.  I would like to see this functionallity continued, even if it meant all save or editing functionality inside future "flavors" of MDT 2009 are disabled.  

Message 12 of 50
TravisNave
in reply to: ihiengdept

Yes, but... if you had converted over to Inventor back in 2007, you would only have to convert your MDT drawings prior to that and you'd think in a half-dozen years, you'd be caught up by now.  The very fact that hundreds of other companies had already done this is proof of that concept.  Everybody knew years ago that MDT was going away.  But Autodesk kept bringing it back over and over to subside the complaints.  At some point, you gotta turn over the etch-a-sketch and shake it and start fresh.  Yet despite this, there will still be those who retire at 65 and only have Social Security to look forward to because they never saved for retirement.  Oh, I will some day...



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Message 13 of 50
mflayler2
in reply to: ihiengdept

To be honest a lot of the fault of conversion over the last couple years does not fall on the users as much as it does management ignoring the warnings of change.  To my previous note about users being informed of MDT going away, some managers feel that it will be the next guy's problem to convert the engineering team since they may be close to retirement or have not fully understood the consequences of waiting so long.  In the end, they never even told their team and lived in a bubble of churning out work.

 

When it comes down to their production in their staff, don't remodel it in Inventor, do it in MDT as a quick change and keep churning out the drawings and prints for production.  What should have happened was when a quick change is ordered, perform a translation to Inventor and rework the print with some extra lead time.  In short order that would have solved a lot of these issues the users now have to face due to some shortsightedness on someone else's part.  Truly they are the ones that should have been held accountable on this.  The end users engineer/designer is now feeling the pinch more.

 

If you have not thought about it already, all users of MDT should start a conversion path of some kind..like yesterday and by time you have all this caught up you could probably uninstall MDT in 2-3 years, you just can't add anymore seats that were not under subscription or on a Standalone non sub license.  Maybe hire an intern and have them convert files on an MDT machine for two months while they are getting up to speed on the company and design procedures.

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Mark Flayler - Engagement Engineer

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Message 14 of 50
TravisNave
in reply to: mflayler2

Well said, Mark.


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Message 15 of 50
ihiengdept
in reply to: TravisNave

@Travis

 

Thanks for your contribution, I understand where you are comming from, but I suspect the industries your referring to are different than ours.  I'm relatively new at my company (2010) but the company was moving to inventor before I got here.  We're a small business who custom builds our own machines for production.  Since I've been here all new stuff has been in inventor.  When we needed the solids for design or improvement, they are imported.  We're essentially doing what you're talking about, but bottom line, we're not done.  And if we do it this way, we won't be for a long time.  There are just parts of a machine that don't need attention very often, but we want the data available.  

 

We also don't sell these machines because what we do is so specialized, so the payback for spending lots of time perfecting and maintaining the files and documents is less than for a company that is maintaining files for parts they mass produce and sell.  Once something is made, we really don't want to mess with it.  These files ARE our documentation,  Not just our development & deisgn process.

 

To do the conversions your talking about would be a very large expense for us.  Adding a person to do the job is a 50% increase to the department size disregarding all the work it takes from management (me) to find and incorporate a new person into the system.   I know lots of companies have found ways to deal with the issue, but we're not them. 

 

Autodesk has continued to "support" (make available) MDT because of customers "complaints".   I do appreciate that, but in my mind the complaints are valid and they're not my hero for doing what they should do.  (Even MS has that period where were not improving anymore but they'll do bug fixes since we know company's can't get rid of it overnight.)  I want "support" to open old files in new software, that's the best way for us to keep moving forward without sinking a lot of money into it.  

 

We build and improve incrementally.  There will be new machines, but I want to know that the data I'm making now will also continue to be supported for the next 20 years without the software I'm using breaking my links and systems.  I love that technology is improving.  I understand it comes with the cost of starting fresh sometimes, but what I ask from the company's I'm tying my business to is that they continue to support the old data.  Even microsoft has had to bow to this again and again.  Look how many compatability layers are in support for old software.  I can still run some doss stuff as well.  You try to tell a company that they have to rewrite this $30,000 or that $200,000 custom software because you won't support the DLL's from the OS it rely's on anymore.  Yeah, eventually it will need to be replaced, but not on a 5 or year development cycle.  

 

Why does windows have to support DOS (in some flavor) even in newer OS's?  Because I've got a machine with a programmable controller in it that's 20 years old, and to interface with that controller I have to use that companies 18 year old software on my 5 year old computer.  I can't rewrite it if I wanted and legacy hardware is tough to get.  So as soon as I can, I'll get that controller replaced, but don't expect me to do it every 5, 10, or (hopefully) even 15 years.  If it's getting the Job done, I want all the life I can get.  The more money I spend on maintenence, the less I have to move my own tech cycles forward.

 

I think the correlary for Autodesk is letting us open old files.  Not change, build, and devlop.  But open, because I have machines that need my attention and I don't want to get bit in the rear because the conversion didn't work out right.

 

In the end we'll deal and I'm working up a strategy, but it's a frustration from a comany we've consistently supported and continue to support.  May technolgy march forward, and may companies be reliable to support the legacy issues they create (for as long as possible) as they move forward.  

 

Message 16 of 50
ihiengdept
in reply to: mflayler2

@ Mark  

 

I agree, very well said.  As someone who has to do some managment myself, your analysis seems right on.  

 

As a manager, I do know how many different things can come flying at you from quality, to safety, HR, efficiency, legalm environmental, political.....  So while I may not agree with their decision not to begin using newer software, I can understand.

 

I think the design and devolpment has to stay near the cutting edge to do well in many industries, and moving your software platforms forward is an important part of that.  Also, if you're not doing your designs in newer (and trustworthy) platforms, your may shorten your own poducts life.  At the pace things go, however, legacy issues crop up faster and faster.  Supporting legacy issues is the otherway to extend the life and I want both.  Sometimes, there's just no need to replace mature products.   

Message 17 of 50
TravisNave
in reply to: ihiengdept

It's like the old classic elementary story about the ant and the grasshopper. The ant spent all summer long gathering food for the winter because he knew it was coming and the grasshopper did nothing. In the end, the ant was prepared, had shelter and food to last the winter, and the grasshopper froze and starved. These stories are meant to teach a lesson. Don't be the grasshopper.


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Message 18 of 50
kstate92
in reply to: TravisNave

Sometimes, ants are too G*D* busy just trying to survive.  But I suppose all ants should aspire to having perfect foresight, endless resources... and humility.


@TravisNave wrote:
It's like the old classic elementary story about the ant and the grasshopper. The ant spent all summer long gathering food for the winter because he knew it was coming and the grasshopper did nothing. In the end, the ant was prepared, had shelter and food to last the winter, and the grasshopper froze and starved. These stories are meant to teach a lesson. Don't be the grasshopper.
 
KState92
Inventor Professional 2020
AutoCAD Mechanical 2022.0.1
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit - 1903
Core i7-8700 32 GB Ram
Quadro P2000
Message 19 of 50
ihiengdept
in reply to: ihiengdept

@ Mark,

 

Oh, one thing I do have a little issue with:  Turning a 5 minute quick change into a "little lead time" (30 minute exercise)  times 100 quick changes isn't a cheap way of doing this.   I'm not (yet) the expert at conversions, but I haven't seen our drawings convert well, so often have to be redone.  30mins could even be generous.  I'll be doing more research as I deal with this.   (It's the drawings that are killer.... I'll have to work on that more.  For now I'm playing with the idea of a prints -> PDF,  Solids(dwg) -> solids(.ipt'/.iam's) but it's getting off topic.)  When you've got 10 engineers, dedicating a guy to getting the conversion figured out isn't a big deal.  When you have two.... 

 

 I'm probably "one of those managers" that you refer to, however, we do end up converting a number of things as we go.  Why spend an extra 25 minutes converting a part that will eventually be replaced.  Just let me see what the old one was like (open MDT files) and have that 30 minutes for the new design. I think it's a fair request and expectation.  It's all the stuff that will fall between the cracks that's a danger.

 

@ kstate

Yup. 🙂

 

Message 20 of 50

Hi TravisNave, 

 

I think your replies are coming off as condescending on this matter. You might intend for that to be or it might be unintentional, but it seems clear that you're either unfamiliar with the economic realities of smaller manufacturers or are dismissing them to support your view.

 

Certainly Autodesk has given warning on this matter. But there are small companies that will simply never have the resources to convert their files in the ideal manner, even if the deadline had stretched another 10 years.

 

Had Autodesk taken a different course of action and made a MDT viewer as ihiengdept suggested, that might have been all that was needed. But that is not the case, and so the people who work for companies that find themselves in a fix, need to concentrate on finding a solution, rather than blaming Autodesk for the nature of the situation.

 

Simply put, it is what it is. And no amount of finger pointing in either direction is going to solve the situation.

 

I don't find myself needing MDT, but have worked through these issues in the past when switching software packages for CAD systems, MRP systems, etc.

 

 

To all that are still in this situation:

 

If you find yourself about to loose access to MDT, but know that you're never going to be able to convert legacy files, then consider printing hard copies, or PDFs of these files. Contract an employee, hire an intern, bring someone in from the shop floor, etc.

 

Years ago I worked for an outfit that had a bunch of drawings done in some generic 2D CAD package that became defunct. I was asked to redraw these files in AutoCAD (not import them) in order to get things changed over. It proved to be very valuable in learning the company product line, in an in depth way that would have taken years to understand otherwise. It also allowed me to dig into LISP and VBA and begin automating much of the work for the same but different designs.

 

Look for these opportunities for yourself (if they exist), and if they don't, just ensure that you have some record of the past designs and do the best you can. But don't let the smugness of those who aren't in your shoes get in your way.

 

Let's get the conversation back on track and answer the original question: "how to proceed?"

 

I hope this helps.
Best of luck to you in all of your Inventor pursuits,
Curtis
http://inventortrenches.blogspot.com


 

 

 

 

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