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Large Assembly recommendations for Workstations?

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Message 1 of 48
warrenandy
5407 Views, 47 Replies

Large Assembly recommendations for Workstations?

We have a user who's job it is to combine all of the subassembly into one large model. These are tire assembly machines with thousands of parts including nuts and bolts. The top level is looking to be between 150,000 - 200,000 occurrences and probably 50,000 - 75,000 unique parts. So we are talking huge amounts of data. Currently he has a Win 7 Precision 64-bit, 16 GB RAM, Quadro 2000 Nivida 1 GB, and a 512 SSD HD. Not too shabbily of a Mobile workstation. But it is not big enough.

 

So what can we do to get more HP (Pun intended) out of this Dell? Then what would be a recommended monster workstation (It would be for the dept to share, but would be a tower not a laptop)?

Andrew Warren
Manager, Engineering Services Support
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
warrenandy@bfusa.com
andywarrenbc@outlook.com
47 REPLIES 47
Message 21 of 48

If I were to build a machine to replace the one in my signature this would probably be it :

 

Intel i7 3960x CPU (3.3 GHz Intel boost 3.9GHz when using one core) maybe water cool and overclock it.

Asus P9X79 Motherboard

Upto 64 GB of 1800MHz RAM

Gainward 4GB GeForce GTX680 (could go for a 4GB GTX 690 but then each core only gets 2GB)

SATA3 SSD Hard drive (at least 256GB so there is space for all the software that comes with PDS these days)

 

Chose the 6 core i7 over the slightly faster 4 core i7 chips as most of my arrangement idw drawings have at least 6 views on them so all 6 cores are used. If my drawing files only had one view per idw I would go for the faster 4 core version of the i7 as the extra cores will not get used.

 

Regards

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

 

Inventor 2023
Message 22 of 48
stevec781
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

I just ordered a Dell laptop for use when travelling.  Speaking to their reps (and looking at the specs they suggested to you) its clear they dont understand how Inventor works.  As soon as they hear CAD they default to workstation.  They dont know that Inventor doesnt need an expensive card.  They dont get it only uses single core most of the time.  And that's ok, they shouldnt be expected to know everything.

 

So just tell them you need

1. The fastest cpu they have - number of cores doesnt matter. (3.1GHz is way too slow fo your needs)

2. The best gaming card they have

3. The fastest Ram they have (amount up to you)

4. SSD for data.  I use a small SSD for data only and a large hybrid drive for OS, swap, and programs.  (Put your swap file in a dedicated partition)

 

Message 23 of 48
Rich.O.3d
in reply to: stevec781

one more time

 

 

SSD is faster for OS and Software

SATA HDD is faster for Data retrieval

 

you want

1x SSD (doesnt need to be too big as only run your OS and software on it)

+

2x 10000rpm HDD's (stripped if your running vault as redundancy is not an issue)

or if you need redundancy at your pc then 4x 10000rpm drives in raid10 (if tight then 3x in raid5 might suffice)

CAD Management 101:
You can do it your own way,
If its done just how I say!
[Metallica:And Justice For All:1988]
Message 24 of 48
stevec781
in reply to: Rich.O.3d


@richos69 wrote:

 

SSD is faster for OS and Software

SATA HDD is faster for Data retrieval

 


Can you elaborate on how that is faster.  My two slowest areas were file open & save, and rebuilds.

 

My thoughts are that I am always opening and saving data files and I used to wait a long time.  So I put my data on the ssd which has the best latency and bandwidth performance, and now my files open and save a lot faster.  Part rebuilds are cpu based so HD shouldnt make any difference to rebuild times.

 

I cant see how putting the data on the slowest drive will be better considering how often we retrieve and save data files.  Once the OS and software has loaded I imagine it doesnt use the HD much as its mostly loaded into RAM.  Having said that my OS and software is on a hybrid disk so maybe that helps overall performance.

 

Message 25 of 48
blair
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

I have a couple of machines that are running SSD drives in RAID0. The first is using four SATAII SSD drives giving a read transfer rate of 920Mb while my home machine is running two SATAIII drives in RAID0 with an Adaptec controller giving a read transfer rate of 1.1Gb.

 

I have a new Alienware laptop with 2 SATAIII hybrid drives in RAID0 and it is a boat anchor compared to the SSD drives. 

 

The way data is apparently stored on the hard-drives, SSD drives don't handle data bases as well as conventional disc/platter type drives. There is a great video on Youtube (search for 24 SSD drives) it will give you an idea of how fast you can load data/programs.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 26 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

After reading this entire thread, I still didn't find what I want to know.


Will someone please tell me the following about IV2010-2013, as used for modeling and drawing creation (I do NOT do any FEA, rendering, animation):

 

1. How does IV use hardware? In other words, what parts of the program use what pieces of hardware, when, and how much?

 

2. I read that SSD's are good for finding data, but they suck for data swapping (like when IV reads/writes to the disk while editing models and drgs). Is this true? If so, how's the best way to handle all the functions of IV in my kind of modeling/detailing?

 

3. What hardware combinations are best for reliability and working together? I have built systems before, and found that if I don't know what pieces of hardware work well together, then the system will be a boat anchor. Also, some brands of hardware are better than others, such as memory. But the market is so volatile, and with businesses buying-out others and cheapening up components (like Dell does now!), there's no telling what hardware is good these days.

 

4. My main concerns are these:

  a. cpu/mbd bandwidth & speed

  b. RAM/mbd bandwidth, speed & reliability

  c. drive controller/mbd bandwidth & speed

  d. video card/mbd bandwidth & speed

  e. chipset efficiency, stability and reliability

  f. drivers: reliability and stability

  g. mbd: durability (due to the heat involved) and versatility

  h. hdd v. ssd speed, through the full spectrum of hardware and software use

  i. power supply quality and reliability

  j. quiet fans on the box

 

I found this to be true every time w/IV:

 

1. My dual quad-core 3.1's max out ONLY ONE processor, and friezes the screen, while all the other 7 processors sit idle. Okay, so let's hire and pay 8 employees, and make only one of them do all the work, while the rest go on coffee break. So, unless IV has changed how it handles processes, the way I see it, multi-core processors are a WASTE OF TIME AND $$$.

 

2. IV uses the hdd extensively, regardless of the qty of RAM (IV2010 & XP-64). Disks are a serious bottleneck.

 

3. Nobody talks about other processes that IV does behind the scenes (no Vault installed, and no connection to any network). I want to know ALL of them , and what resources they use, and how to optimize the hardware/hardware, software/hardware relationship.

 

4. Any time I have a model with over 300 parts, the idw file STALLS miserably, even if I relegate one file per drg sheet. I have had some files with over 2000 parts, and edits took forever.

 

I'd appreciate anybody with experience filling me in on the data I want to know. A well-informed opinion would be appreciated too.

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 27 of 48
blair
in reply to: warrenandy

I'm just 1/2 way through a build for a new machine, i7 - 3930 on a EVGA X79 Classified MOB, with 32Gb or ram, EVGA GTX-690 card, dual Intel SSD 500gb drives in RAID0 on a Adaptec 6805 controler. Spare 2Tb hd for local back-up (still do full network backup) EVGA 750w power supply, a couple of sata DVD units a HPZR30w monitor and some Edifer Spinnaker E30 speakers for 1/2 price of your Dell system all in a Lian Li PC-V2120 all alumimun case. IncludingWin7 Ultimate and Office 2010.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 28 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

I'm curious what kind of work you do on your machine, and what percentages of time you spend on what operations.

Please let me know how you like it after using it for some time (details are nice).

Do you get discounts on the hardware?

If so, where do you get it?

Does the supplier guarantee the individual parts work well together so you don't "pull your hair out" troubleshooting it all the time?

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 29 of 48
Martin_Goodland
in reply to: cadman777

Hi Chris

 

I mainly work on Architectural metalwork contracts used in commercial construction. This includes staircases, mesh facades, decorative cladding & wayfinding units. I spend all my time in the modeling and drawing enviroment, no FEA no renders etc. my models are not always big but do have a fair bit of complex geometry, memory usage is in the region of 4 - 6 GB. 

 

I have been using the machine for a couple of years now and it still performs well. I have an ongoing project that was started in Inventor 2009 and is modified and reused every few years. This job only has a few hundered parts but on my old machine (Vista 64, 4GB RAM and mechanical drive) updaing the drawings would take hours because the machine would run out of memory and start to page.

 

I work for myself so built my own machines, the parts are just covered by standard manufactures waranties but 2 years in and the machine is still trouble free.

 

I have also gone back into full time employment in addition to contracting. For my day job I am using a new intel machine with 16GB RAM and SSD drives. This machine has a Quadro 2000 graphics card in it. The Quadro feels lacking (under performing) compaired to the Geforce GTX580 in my own machine.

 

 Regards

 

Martin

 

 

Inventor 2023
Message 30 of 48
blair
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

I do alot of reasonable sized assemblies, lots of rending 3000 x 2000 and a lot of FEA work in the commercial equipment/transportation field. I used to assembly my machines and then did the Dell Precision for a while and went back to assembling my own machines again. With AD's move to D3D in Inventor back with release 11 it's allowed people to move away from OpenGL cards "Quadro" (very pricey) to good gaming cards for considerably less money. My time is probably spent 40% modeling/drawing 40% FEA/Sim and 20% Rendering.BT635D.jpg


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 31 of 48
blair
in reply to: stevec781

A lot of people look at the higher cost of SSD's and use them only for O/S and try to get the most bang for the buck. Traditionally, the price per Gb is higher for the large drives. I tend to go with the SSD drives in RAID0 which combines the drives to produce one larger and faster drive.

 

SSD drives in RAID0 scale well, if you have 2 x 500Gb SATAIII drives with 550 Mb Read/Transfer rates, you end up with one 1Gb drive with a Read/Transfer rate of 1.1Gb.

 

My oldest machine, coming up to 3 1/2 years was done with 4 x 60 Gb drives in RAID0 and my home machine (one year old) features 2 x 500 Gb drives in RAID0

 

The slowest component in your system is the Hard-drive by a factor of almost 1000 when compared to your CPU. Inventor Pro loads in under 15 seconds from a cold boot (system re-started from last running of Inventor). I think nothing of opening and closing Inventor a number of times in a work day because it opens so fast.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 32 of 48
blair
in reply to: cadman777

In IV2013, in the IDW enviroment it uses multi-cores to generate the IDW as well as in Rendering and FEA. This does produce a difference in IDW creation and loading time.

 

If you were just doing modeling only, then the fastest clock-speed single or dual core is all you would need. Newer version of IV are taking advantage of multi cores.

 

There is a utility in Win7 to set certain programs to use a specific core. This will allow you to balance the load across the cores of the CPU. Seach Microsoft Affinity: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/window-on-windows/change-the-processor-affinity-setting-in-windows-...


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 33 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: Martin_Goodland

Martin/Blair,

 

Thanks for sharing your scope of work. It helps me gauge your comments about CAD machines.

 

I work like both of you guys (minus rendering & fea), plus other kind of work, which makes your comments valued. I guess I have to bridge the gap between the 2 kinds of machines taylored to my own work. I'm tending towards building my own machine, and not buy another Dell Precision. I built an Asus internet computer that's got a load of power and speed, and is very reliable (around $1000 US). I just need to find the right components for a CAD machine, which is why I'm in here.

 

Here's an example of how my work compares with yours:

 

Blair, I modeled a tank-hauling truck recently, based on a frame design that's morphed over the years. They wanted me to capture their design and "fix" its weaknesses. I managed to snag a standard tandem off "GrabCAD". Let me tell you, it really bogged my macnine in the model editing module. Then I had to build the frame off around it. Golly, what a resource hog!

 

Martin, I also do complex surfacing, such as suction manifolds and "shark's mouths" for the dredger-mining industry. Many times I need to do them in Rhino, b/c IV can't do them. However, when I do them in IV, these "little models" really eat machine resources. Also, sheetmetal kicks its butt too. One model I did had about 100 sheets of drawings to build it (a pit gun sled for blasting phos-rock for pumping to the plant).

 

So, both of you guys have opininos that "weigh-in" for me. Appreciate it.

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 34 of 48
blair
in reply to: cadman777

Look at the Nvidia GTX 680 card, a single GPU card so all the card memory can be used for the single GPU. I tend to do alot in Showcase, so I can use a number of GPU's and CPU's. I wish that Showcase was more like 3dsMax and allow the user to select which GPU and CPU cores you want to use.

 

I have tended the last number of builds to lean towards EVGA components, both motherboards, graphic cards and power supplies. They seem to have the longest warranties for their components and are easy to work with in case of a problem.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 35 of 48
dgorsman
in reply to: blair

A few extra points for those building your own system (and blair - I'm jealous...):

 

Get a full size case.  Yes, they are *huge* but its easier to get everything to fit, especially for somebody without much experience.  Many of them also have the front-panel connectors at the top corner, so they are easier to reach when the case is on the floor.  It has extra space for additional cooling, video cards (I'm sure you'll be gaming at some point), drive bays, and other components.

 

Get a modular power supply.  Costs a bit more, but you don't have a snake of unused connectors left hanging in the case.  And if you add more components later you just have to plug a few power cables in(Thanks to the late Sinc for that one)

 

Look into after-market cooling.  Not water cooling or anything exotic, but most OOTB system coolers are based on average performance rather than pushing the system hard.

 

RAM branding doesn't matter that much any more.  Check the motherboard specs for whether the system requires/supports dual, triple, or quad-channel and buy the RAM accordingly.

 

Do research before committing.  If Intel or Asus are a month or two from releasing a new series existing CPUs and motherboards can drop by 50% or even go out of production soon aftwards.

 

Find a small PC store with in-house support just in case it becomes necessary.  We all drop things, bend pins, accidentally short the motherboard.  Having a professional you can talk to in person is invaluable.

----------------------------------
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
"I don't know" is the beginning of knowledge, not the end.


Message 36 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: dgorsman

Blair/DG,

Looks like more good information to add to the mix.

Thanx

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 37 of 48
blair
in reply to: cadman777

My last three builds all feature Modular power supplies, I love them. My newest build the Mother-Board mounts on a slide-out tray. Six thumb screws and the Mother-Board slides out with all the PCI cards. The last number of builds are so quiet the only way you can tell if the unit is running is to see if the lights are on.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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Message 38 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: blair

Blair,

 

Two things I'm running into:

 

1. I can't find all the components in one place. I have to buy them at different places. The problem with this is nobody will guarantee that their components will work properly with the others.

 

2. Autodesk recommends using hardware based raid with error=checking, not Raid 0. Is there a reason why you went with Raid 0 instead of what Autodesk recommends? Also, if I use Raid with error-checking (I forget which number Raid it is), is that slower than no Raid (I used to know this stuff!).

 

Thanks ...

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 39 of 48
cadman777
in reply to: blair

Blair,

I finally got a new system.

My Dell Precision T7400 finally burned out all the ram slots. "Great" machine, considering it cost $8,500 and lasted only 3.5 years!!

I listened to your advice, and went with EVGA & Intel components.

I got "Digital Storm" to build it.

So far, it's running like a "raped ape".

It opens a large model in 15 secs, instead of the 1.5 mins on the Dell.

It opens the GA drg of that model in 30 secs, instead of the 3+ mins on the dell.

It's doing fine so far w/a GeForce graphics card (EVGA).

Your advice did right by me.

Hope your new machine is giving you a good feeling too ... Chris

... Chris
Win 7 Pro 64 bit + IV 2010 Suite
ASUS X79 Deluxe
Intel i7 3820 4.4 O/C
64 Gig ADATA RAM
Nvidia Quadro M5000 8 Gig
3d Connexion Space Navigator
Message 40 of 48
blair
in reply to: cadman777

I love my new machine, deathly quick and quiet and extremely stable. I just wish the "Titan" graphics card came about 2 months sooner so I could be running it instead.


Inventor 2020, In-Cad, Simulation Mechanical

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