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Frame Generator WorkFlow

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Message 1 of 15
s.shumeyko
4945 Views, 14 Replies

Frame Generator WorkFlow

I've read and searched this form, but this is my first official post.

 

Recently the company bought a single license of Inventor to test out and see if it meets our company goals and is efficient to use for what we do.  I've been working with the frame generator, which is fairly easy to use and make the initial assembly, but I am having trouble and breaking out individual sections to detail. 

 

I am stuck with using LOD for this platform, but for future references I was wondering if anyone could provide a general workflow procedure of the best way of creating assemblies and subassemblies.

 

 

What I am currently using Inventor is to build a condenser platform. Generally we like to weld as much of it in the shop before it goes to the field for final assembly.  The platform consists of beam supports, grating, stairs, and handrail. In this case we would generally take sections of the handrail and weld in the shop, we would also have the stairs with the handrail welded on it as well. I would like to refrain from converting this to weldment.

 

I have tried promoting and demoting but this loses constraints and references. Also I cannot create a single skeleton of the whole frame at one time because a lot of the frame members depend on the other members structural sizes (flange width, height, etc.).

 

If anyone has suggestions and constructive criticism, I would love to hear it. I've read of people creating multiple subassemblies and grounding them, but I would like to think that their has to be away that I could just build off of the base skeleton and not have to cycle through different assemblies.

 

Thank you in advance.

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14 REPLIES 14
Message 2 of 15
pauldoubet
in reply to: s.shumeyko

I looked at the steps and platform. You can definitely do what you want with Inventor using Framer Generator and other features of Inventor. It is probably beyond what can be explained in the forum. You can share parameters from an Excel file or an ipt or iam file to help drive your model.

 

"Also I cannot create a single skeleton of the whole frame at one time because a lot of the frame members depend on the other members structural sizes (flange width, height, etc.)."

 

To briefly answer this concern you should look into using Work Planes in your skeleton to locate additional sketches for these elements.

 

The best advice I would give you is to get some good training and buy a good text book on Inventor.

 

Hope this helps, Paul

Message 3 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: pauldoubet

Thanks for the advice, I am going to buy some refrence and help material.

 

In regards to the planes, I will attempt making the skeleton from a single sketch and adding unto that sketch as I place different members.

 

Another issue that I was wondering about is why doesn't inventor include smart notch features to the AISC standards for assembling strutural beams? I would imagine that the AISC standards are used widely in different industries.  I would really hate to create a notch profile for each different combination of structural members.

 

Lastly, anyone have a good way of populating clips into the drawing without placing individual clips one at a time? We use clips at basically all connections, welded or bolted, which is to AISC standards.

 

 

Message 4 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko


@s.shumeyko wrote:

Another issue that I was wondering about is why doesn't inventor include smart notch features to the AISC standards for assembling strutural beams? I would imagine that the AISC standards are used widely in different industries.  I would really hate to create a notch profile for each different combination of structural members.

 


You need to use a combination of the trim tool and iFeature to create these notches. It doesn't take that long to set up. The AISC provides an Excel database of all shapes and dimensions to members. You just set up the iFeature and copy and paste the information as needed from there.

 


@s.shumeyko wrote:

Lastly, anyone have a good way of populating clips into the drawing without placing individual clips one at a time? We use clips at basically all connections, welded or bolted, which is to AISC standards.

 


This is where you need to create iParts, iAssembies, and iFeatures to do what you want.

 

Keep in mind this software tool is not Steel Detailing software. For that you need either AD's Steel Detailing software or Tekla or SDS2. All of which are crap. We have found that by investing the time and research, IV can be a useful steel detailing tool but it doesn't come that way "out of the box" nor was it designed to be.

 

The picure attached is an example of what we do all the time using FG, iFeatures, iAssemblies, and iParts. You can do the work no problem but not without spending time setting it up.

 



Inventor Professional
Message 5 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: jeanchile

Thank you, I wasn't aware that AISC provided a table, that would be quiet helpful.

 

The platform that you show is quiet similar to what we build, thanks for that.

 

If it isn't against your company policy would you be able to either send the assembly with necessary files, or maybe just somehow getting the browser uploaded in PDF form so I would be able to see what workflow was implemented. Once again only IF there would be no rights issues, thank you.

 

I am fairly new to the frame generator in inventor so I have much to learn if you have a good reference book that you use that show and teach Inventor capabilities, I would like to know what book it is.

Message 6 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko

Let me see what I can do. I'm out of town for the next little while. I can recommend Mastering Inventor 20XX by Curtis Waguespack. It has several chapters that will help you out but you'll need to go through several in order to do everything you want, not just the frame generator chapter.

I'll try to post more information later... Don't let me forget!
Inventor Professional
Message 7 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: jeanchile

Thank you, I've bought the recommend book, should be in tomorrow so hopefully that would give me a better understanding.

 

But, of course, a nicely done assembly would be nice to look at to even get a better understanding. If possible, I would like to look at the detailing and how it was layed out in .idw.  I am currently detailing different parts and subassemblies in the drawing I am working on and running into some issues trying to find the best work around of labeling individual parts accordingly to the overall assembly tagging.

 

To clarify I am not asking someone to spoon feed me the information, however, having a completed drawing to look at certainly would be helpful to learn from and possibly improve upon.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Message 8 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko

I'm not going to be able to give you full content but I can help you get where you need to be, and I can share some things with you. Perhaps you can send me an email and we can take this information further. As Paul said (and he's an expert, he would know) there is too much info to share here. This combined with everyone's processes needing to differ it may be easier if you and I do this outside the forum.

 

Send me an email and I will try to help where I can: rmdetail_at_qwest_dot_com.

Inventor Professional
Message 9 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: s.shumeyko

Thank you for the offer, email sent but was undeliverable for some reason. (to above)

 

I know I have been lacking on specifics of what I am trying to accomplish but I hope the following example would be helpful in providing information so someone would have suggestions.

 

The model I had created had a sloppy work flow, that combined with wrong usage of LOD's and suppressions caused the previous model to lose a lot of projected geometry references which made the handrailing and stairs I created previously unrepairable.

 

Looking at the provided picture how would you all suggest creating stairs (exact location not provided because it shouldn't matter on the workflow, if needed however I will specify)?  I would like to avoid referencing existing parts/members so there won't be a chance of it losing that reference.

 

Should the sketch be added onto the original frame skeleton sketch? If so what would be the best way of locating the workplane? I would like to have adaptivity so that if a frame member was to move, the corresponding parts would change along, but I am worried about it losing reference.

 

Same question as above goes for the handrailing that would be running around the outer edge of the platform and across the angle located across the ladder.

 

This is being done in Inventor Professional 2012, SP1.

16GB Ram, Quadro FX 580

 

(the bottom left corner is just a reference of an existing platform, it isn't part of the "actual" model)

 

(the included picture is of what I salvaged from the previous model, what is left is sound in workflow so the structure of it is solid)

 

Sorry it is so long.

Message 10 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko


@s.shumeyko wrote:

... email sent but was undeliverable for some reason.... 



That is because I am an idiot and gave you an incorrect addressSmiley Sad. The real one should be ".net" not ".com", sorry.

 

Before I start on a suggested workflow for this I would need to know your intent. Are you guys designing this with the intent to fabricate it or just design it? In other words, are you preparing fabrication drawings from these items or just design documentation and then a fabricator will prepare the shop drawings? Are you a steel detailer or an engineer?

 

Knowing the end result can help refine the workflow to accomplish what you need without any wasted time.

Inventor Professional
Message 11 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: s.shumeyko

Thank you I`ll forward it over to that address.

Regarding the end result, I am hoping to achieve a drawing that would have all details in order to fabricate, assemble, and install the platform. We will weld as much of the platform in shop as we can, than it will go out to the job site in welded modules to be placed and installed fully. We are contractors that do large refrigeration systems for warehouse purposes, and we engineer, fabricate and install the full system.
Message 12 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko

Sorry about the mix-up on the email address.

   Part of the reason I wanted to take this offline was that I needed to clarify something about sharing content. There are some things that I can send your way and there are others that my company has spent years (and tens of thousands of dollars) researching, developing, and implementing. Those kinds of things I am reluctant to share and most definitely not on a public forum for everyone.

   My company provides many different services and in an attempt to consolidate our software packages, we performed a software implementation study on Inventor being used for this type of framing (in lieu of Tekla). So far we have been able to accomplish what we want with a few workflow changes. The content and customization we have developed puts us in a certain market position regarding one of the services we perform and I am not going to be able to share this information with anyone. If I can find a way to share the content, without “giving away the farm” as it were, I would be happy to help. Please keep in mind that this information is not ground breaking stuff, but it took us a while to develop and I can’t just hand it out, but anyone with some IV knowledge can figure out ways to make their process more efficient. Until I can find a way to share it (if it is even possible) I will have to be more general in my help. Obviously there is no intellectual property to protect when it comes to platforms, stairs, and guardrail but with the content and customization there is.

   Here’s my basic workflow on a platform like yours. Please keep in mind that the entire frame (supports, railing, stairs) is not one GIANT frame generator file. They are all individual FG files that are controlled by a master skeleton file. It takes some experience (and time) to set all of this up and there is no easy way about it other than developing your own process as you go along, but hopefully there is some usable information here:

1.)    Skeleton Geometry / Sketches:

  1. This is the most important part of any frame generator assembly. I would advise spending a bit of time in the beginning about how you lay out your sketches and geometry that frame generator uses. Sometimes the best thing is a simple sketch, sometimes it is actual extrusions, sometimes a combination of both with work-planes and axes combined as well. I find that most of my FG issues go away with proper planning of my skeleton.
  2. It’s best if you decide at this level where things are going to be split up and shipped. The finish requirements obviously play a role. In the picture below, most of the beams and purlins were shipped separately but there is a braced frame in the background that went shop welded together. Sometimes it is critical to develop your skeleton in a way that keeps this in mind. There are times when you can use the split face tool on skeleton geometry to accomplish what you need after the fact, but sometimes it’s best to do this before you get going.

2.)    Main FG Components:

  1. This is where the steel members are placed onto the skeleton geometry. It’s a good idea to get into the habit of placing this geometry onto the skeleton in the order it would likely be erected if possible (sometimes with shop welded frames this isn’t possible). I would absolutely avoid using frame generator components to dictate placement of other components. This was something I picked up from my training and have never done. I’m not even sure of the ramifications if you do this, but I was told never to do it and it sort of makes sense from a model stability standpoint (changing member sizes, etc.).

3.)    Demote components as needed:

  1. This is where the decision that was made earlier about what is going to be shop welded vs. field bolted is implemented.
  2. I demote the items that are going to be shop welded together into sub-assemblies inside the frame generator assembly.

4.)    FG End Treatments:

  1. I use the standard FG end treatments where possible and I use them in conjunction with the custom table driven iFeatures in the next section. For example, before I cope a beam like this:FG Help Pic #1.png

I first use the FG “trim” tool with a ½” gap specified to get the beam length needed with the necessary gap between the beam and the purlin.

5.)    Copes & Blocking:

  1. This is where I place our iFeatures for the AISC copes with radii, blocking, cuts, etc.
  2. We set these up long before as table driven iFeatures with options for the supporting beam’s size, whether we are coping top and bottom flanges, etc.

6.)    Connection Items:

  1. Then I place all of the connection elements needed using our iAssemblies and iParts. We created all of our connection elements as iParts. The clip angles are standard table driven parts. The bolts are a simplified version of a bolt complete with the nut and washer. This was done to remove the threads from the display and to simplify the load on our CPU’s as we can have thousands of these bolts in a larger assembly and using the content center fasteners with all the constraints was a nightmare.
  2. The different types of connections have different BOM settings (e.g. all field bolted connections like the one shown above are set to phantom so each element is promoted to the top level BOM). Shop welded/field bolted connections are done differently and can be done several different ways. If you need more help here I can suggest some more options but I would need more information.

7.)    Stairs & Stair Railing:

  1. These components are actually set up differently in my office. We don’t use frame generator for the entire thing. The stairs are pre-designed assemblies that we have in our library complete with drawings. When we need a stair we use the Design Assistant to copy an entire design to the current project. We have a skeleton file (of mostly parameters and a sketch) that we use to drive all of the stairs components (e.g. # of treads/risers, bevel cuts, etc.). The stair railing is a FG component that uses the stair’s skeleton sketch as a derived part and builds from there.

8.)    Guardrail & Toe Plate:

  1. This is done similarly to the stairs and stair railing. Because of the many different ways to fabricate the railing and the many different designs, I’m going to leave this up to you unless you want to provide more info on this matter. Our railing designs use a master skeleton sketch to control individual skeleton sketches that, in turn, control the rail frame generator components.

9.)    Grating /Raised Pattern Floor Plate:

  1. This is done using simple extrusions and a semi-transparent color style. Modeling all of the openings for the grating is too CPU intensive. We do the flooring as simple extrusions that are not usually controlled by a skeleton sketch but you could do that just as easily.

 

Let me know if you have any questions (I imagine you might). I hope this helps, good luck!

 

Jean

Inventor Professional
Message 13 of 15
s.shumeyko
in reply to: s.shumeyko

Thank you. For the most part that is what I was looking for.

 

And regarding not being able to share certain information, I respect that and understand. 

 

My main concern and question is what would be the best approach for placing skeleton sketches that relay on the surface of a Frame generated member?  I want to locate the handrail on the back of an angle that acts as grating support and toe kick. Is it good CAD work to first create a sketch of the angle, than place the angle and go back to the initial skeleton sketch "part" and create a new workplane or sketch plane on the back of the placed angle?  It seems like that would be setting it up for disaster because they are referencing each other.  From the procedure you placed, you did mention to not relay on frame generated profile for the sketch, which I agree with but I am not sure how else to approach this without creating multiple subassemblies and having individual parts instead of frame generated components.

 

Just to clarify, here is another example of why I might need the location and profile of a frame member to continue another section of a platform: For the handrail I also need the end profile of the angle in order to allow a certain amount of space to get a angle clip in there and bolt the different sections of the platform together for stability purposes.  I cannot go off of the initial sketch for the angle because there will be end treatements applied to the angle that will drive the overall size and location of the angle surface that I need to project and refrence.  I know projecting geometry and than breaking the link is an option, but often times design and size of a platform might change halfway through the model and I would really like to have as much adaptivity as needed in order to have to do as little change as possible to get it to the new design and size.

 

Once again, I appreciate any input. 

Message 14 of 15
jeanchile
in reply to: s.shumeyko


@s.shumeyko wrote:

...  I want to locate the handrail on the back of an angle that acts as grating support and toe kick.  


 

I may be over-simplifying this because I cannot see all of your design constraints but in this case I would create my skeleton so that the edges, lines, faces, etc. were in the plane that was shared between the back of the angle and the face of the guardrail. Using the offset dimensions, mirror, etc. in the insert frame placement dialog box I have yet to find a situation where I couldn't accomplish what I needed without referencing the exact geometry of a placed item. Your situation may be different though.

 

For example, if you frame was a simple box shape, I would first create the box that was the outside of the angle frame extruded up to give me the surfaces to sketch the guardrail. The vertical sides of the box would be the planes at the back of the angles and the face of the guardrail. That way if the member size of the angle or the guardrail changed, it wouldn't be an issue because they are always going to be in the same plane. And if the size of the frame changed from angle to wide flange I would utilize the offset dimensions in the placement dialog box.

 


@s.shumeyko wrote:

  I cannot go off of the initial sketch for the angle because there will be end treatements applied to the angle that will drive the overall size and location of the angle surface that I need to project and reference. 

 


 

You've lost me here a little bit. Only because in my workflow I haven't actually had the need to project frame generator geometry back into my skeleton. Maybe there is something here we can talk about for a bit, do you have an example screenshot or something to help me?

 

I've probably misunderstood your issues here, but I hope this helps.

 

 

Inventor Professional
Message 15 of 15
smokes2998
in reply to: jeanchile

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