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derived assemblies in top level IDW, parts listing?

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Message 1 of 12
dan
Participant
665 Views, 11 Replies

derived assemblies in top level IDW, parts listing?

Our product is escalators made up of individual modules which are very large in their complexity. We are now at the stage of assembling a top level machine, however because of performance issues this is becoming very difficult.

My solution was to derive each module assembly into single parts and create the assembly from there. However, when parts listing/creating the BOM we are now faced with several parts that require assigning the same number as the actual module assemblies. It appears that productstream has no function to allow this - you may only 'attach' the derived part to the proper assembly but this does not create any sort of link or assign the derived part to the existing item.

I have then tried inserting each full assembly module into the top level and supressing out all components (thus it should appear in the BOM, but not be loaded into the memory). however when placing the parts list this instantly sends the resources usage through the roof again as the parts list is looking at every component in those assemblies - regardless of wether it is normal, inseperable, etc etc.

Using the complete assemblies is simply out of the question - even with LOD's they are massive. I would expect derived components to be an ideal way of managing large assemblies - infact the press for R11 made a big deal about inventor coming of age with its new ability to handle such things.....I'm not so sure. Incidentally the assembly and drawing performs brilliantly with just the derived parts in there.

So, to sumarise, is there any way I can use the derived parts in the top level and still generate a correct BOM? What I really need is the derived part to be assigned to the same item as its module assembly in productstream.....
11 REPLIES 11
Message 2 of 12
Anonymous
in reply to: dan

We have some projects in the works right now that will better support this
workflow.

In the mean time, one way to solve this problem is to maintain 2 versions of
your assy: one with the fully-structured assemblies, another with your
substituted components.

I know you said that you're having capacity problems even with LOD's, but
for your fully-structured assembly, you should just suppress EVERYTHING.
The only thing you need this file for is an accurate BOM (BOMs are
unaffected by active LOD).

When you create your drawing, make your views from the second assembly, but
when you create your parts list, don't select the drawing view. Instead,
navigate out to your "master" assembly.

Three clear down-sides to this solution. 1 - extra file maintenance (you'll
need to manually make sure that the two assemblies are synchronized). 2 -
ballooning. You'll need to ensure that when you balloon the drawing view of
assembly2, you'll need to verify the they match the item numbers in the
parts list from assembly1. 3 - no balloon support for parts-only (as
opposed to structured).

Like I said, this is a very popular request (assembly substitutions) and
we're pursuing a project that will more elegantly solve this problem.

Hope that helps,

--
Andrew Faix
Product Designer
Autodesk Inventor



wrote in message news:5607352@discussion.autodesk.com...
Our product is escalators made up of individual modules which are very large
in their complexity. We are now at the stage of assembling a top level
machine, however because of performance issues this is becoming very
difficult.

My solution was to derive each module assembly into single parts and create
the assembly from there. However, when parts listing/creating the BOM we are
now faced with several parts that require assigning the same number as the
actual module assemblies. It appears that productstream has no function to
allow this - you may only 'attach' the derived part to the proper assembly
but this does not create any sort of link or assign the derived part to the
existing item.

I have then tried inserting each full assembly module into the top level and
supressing out all components (thus it should appear in the BOM, but not be
loaded into the memory). however when placing the parts list this instantly
sends the resources usage through the roof again as the parts list is
looking at every component in those assemblies - regardless of wether it is
normal, inseperable, etc etc.

Using the complete assemblies is simply out of the question - even with
LOD's they are massive. I would expect derived components to be an ideal way
of managing large assemblies - infact the press for R11 made a big deal
about inventor coming of age with its new ability to handle such
things.....I'm not so sure. Incidentally the assembly and drawing performs
brilliantly with just the derived parts in there.

So, to sumarise, is there any way I can use the derived parts in the top
level and still generate a correct BOM? What I really need is the derived
part to be assigned to the same item as its module assembly in
productstream.....
Message 3 of 12
dan
Participant
in reply to: dan

ok, I see what you are suggesting. I will give it a go. to be honest the downsides of that are not too bad assuming performance is maintained when I drop in the parts list. So really the assembly containing the derived parts becomes a purely visual representation of the true assembly - which is what I am aiming for!

I presume in productstream I will need to manually 'add lines' into the top level item and add in the correct assembly items? This should give a correct item list in productstream.

Good to hear I'm not the only one requesting this, to me derived assemblies seem the ideal tool for large assembly modelling.

thanks for the advice I will go try!
Message 4 of 12
dan
Participant
in reply to: dan

Hi,

Having tried what you suggested (1 full 'master' assy with all supressed and using this BOM on the drawing) I am unsure of the advantage of this over what I had already tried? ie having only 1 assembly, featuring the complete sub assemblies with all parts supressed out and also the derived assemblies left visible?

Either way seems to give me the same massive number of 'total occurences' once the parts list is placed on the drawing (37,789). Therefore I would have thought my 1 single assy method was slightly more beneficial in that the balloons could remain automated so long as a single part or bit of work geometry (origins maybe) was left visible for attaching a balloon to?

Or maybe I'm not doing something right? But my occurences are still going from 255 -> 37789 as soon as I lay that parts list down from the master assy.

Any advice much appreciated.

cheers

Dan
Message 5 of 12
dan
Participant
in reply to: dan

bttt, any suggestions?

Still stuck on this, I had resorted to manually parts listing it until I realised that by making the derived parts 'normal' in the BOM this means that next time I update the item in productstream it will attempt to assign items to the derived parts (which were previously phantomed, meaning productstream didnt try and assign them).

Incidentally when using the BOM of a 'master' assembly for the parts list, inventor would crash every time I shut the drawing down. Not to mention use of the drawing being unbearably slow.

Would it not be beneficial for the parts list to reference a LOD instead of seeing every single component when in reality it never needs all these components, only the top level assemblies?

cheers

Dan
Message 6 of 12
Anonymous
in reply to: dan

Yes, now that I think about it, one method probably isn't any better than
the other with respect to the memory footprint.

I don't know why this process would cause occurrence counts to be
inconsistent with your expectations. Are you tagging each of your
substituted, derived sub-assemblies as Reference? If their BOM structure
attribute is normal, those substituted components will add to the component
count in the BOM.


--
Andrew Faix
Product Designer
Autodesk Inventor


wrote in message news:5609359@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi,

Having tried what you suggested (1 full 'master' assy with all supressed and
using this BOM on the drawing) I am unsure of the advantage of this over
what I had already tried? ie having only 1 assembly, featuring the complete
sub assemblies with all parts supressed out and also the derived assemblies
left visible?

Either way seems to give me the same massive number of 'total occurences'
once the parts list is placed on the drawing (37,789). Therefore I would
have thought my 1 single assy method was slightly more beneficial in that
the balloons could remain automated so long as a single part or bit of work
geometry (origins maybe) was left visible for attaching a balloon to?

Or maybe I'm not doing something right? But my occurences are still going
from 255 -> 37789 as soon as I lay that parts list down from the master
assy.

Any advice much appreciated.

cheers

Dan
Message 7 of 12
dan
Participant
in reply to: dan

Hi Andrew,

The occurence counts are not inconsistent with my expectations - I just need a way to reduce them whilst creating a properly functioning parts list. I have tried:

a) An assembly with derived versions of each sub assembly. Then inserting in the 'real' sub assemblies but fully supressed. I then made phantom the derived sub assy's so that the parts list only reflects the 'real' sub assy's that were left as normal in the BOM. By making the derived sub assy's phantom this also prevents productstream from trying to assign items to them when updating the main assembly item in the item master.
This was fine until placing the parts list, at which point the occurences go from circa 250 -> 37,000. I also then tried making the 'real' sub assemblies 'inseperable' to see if this would prevent the parts list looking below anything but the top levels, however this made no difference, still 37,000 occurences.

b) As you suggested originally. Similar to the above using an assembly of derived sub assemblies (all set to phantom), but a 'master' assembly elsewhere with the 'real' sub assy's inserted but all supressed out (and set to normal). Then placing the parts list of the 'master' assembly onto an IDW showing the derived assemblies. However as mentioned this had the same affect as a) on the occurences.

c) My final and least preferred option. An assembly with only the derived sub assemblies included and set to normal to bring them through on the parts list. Then a manual edit on both balloons and parts list fields. Aside from the obvious flaws in this (no automation, updating etc) there is now the problem that updating the assembly item in the item master will force new items to be assigned to each derived sub assembly.

I think I am on to a looser either way. However even departing from the derived idea and using LOD's would still result in the same occurence count as soon as a parts list is generated as the parts list does not consider LOD's.

Should inventor be able to cope with the figures we are talking about here? Surely other users are generating and BOM'ing assemblies of this size? Message was edited by: dan@kone
Message 8 of 12
Anonymous
in reply to: dan

Hello Dan,

A couple suggestions to make your workflow more performant:
1. Load your main assembly in the LOD "All Parts Suppressed," and then load the BOM. This
will be a fairly low-weight operation to memory, and will ensure your BOM is up to date.

2. Now, when working with the Parts List, you can refer to the primary assembly using the
LOD "All Parts Suppressed." This will load all subassemblies, but no part files. You will
see the occurrence count go quite high, but pay more attention to the memory usage. I
would expect it to remain well behaved and fairly low.

I can not stress enough that the occurrence count is not the best indication of memory
consumption. Same with the File count; 100 simple bolts will take less memory than 5 very
complex cast parts. The memory meter is the best indication of true consumption.

With regards to the Derive workflows, Andrew's recommendation of a second assembly will
ensure that you do not need to play LOD games with loading the Derive in place of the main
subassembly, etc. It also avoids damaging your ballooning and the like.

Looking forward to hearing how this works for you,
Pete
Product Design Lead


wrote in message news:5612252@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Andrew,

The occurence counts are not inconsistent with my expectations - I just need a way to
reduce them whilst creating a properly functioning parts list. I have tried:

a) An assembly with derived versions of each sub assembly. Then inserting in the 'real'
sub assemblies but fully supressed. I then made phantom the derived sub assy's so that the
parts list only reflects the 'real' sub assy's that were left as normal in the BOM. By
making the derived sub assy's phantom this also prevents productstream from trying to
assign items to them when updating the main assembly item in the item master.
This was fine until placing the parts list, at which point the occurences go from circa
250 -> 37,000. I also then tried making the 'real' sub assemblies 'inseperable' to see if
this would prevent the parts list looking below anything but the top levels, however this
made no difference, still 37,000 occurences.

b) As you suggested originally. Similar to the above using an assembly of derived sub
assemblies (all set to phantom), but a 'master' assembly elsewhere with the 'real' sub
assy's inserted but all supressed out (and set to normal). Then placing the parts list of
the 'master' assembly onto an IDW showing the derived assemblies. However as mentioned
this had the same affect as a) on the occurences.

c) My final and least preferred option. An assembly with only the derived sub assemblies
included and set to normal to bring them through on the parts list. Then a manual edit on
both balloons and parts list fields. Aside from the obvious flaws in this (no automation,
updating etc) there is now the problem that updating the assembly item in the item master
will force new items to be assigned to each derived sub assembly.

I think I am on to a looser either way. However even departing from the derived idea and
using LOD's would still result in the same occurence count as soon as a parts list is
generated as the parts list does not consider LOD's.

Should inventor be able to cope with the figures we are talking about here? Surely other
users are generating and BOM'ing assemblies of this size?

Message was edited by: dan@kone
Message 9 of 12
dan
Participant
in reply to: dan

Thanks for the reply Peter.

Below are my observations and questions on each of your points since trialing your suggestions. I have started a fresh IDW for testing purposes.

1) For some reason, if I open the 'master' assembly with a LOD activated (eg all parts suppressed) and attempt to open the BOM inventor crashes (disappears, leaving report window) consistently, 100% of the time. I am only able to access the BOM if I am on master LOD.
Also, is there a reason you say use 'all parts suppressed' rather than 'all components suppressed'? I would expect components to be a quicker way of working as even less is loaded into memory?

2) When I go to place the parts list and browse to my master assembly the only LOD's I am offered are the master, 'all contents center suppressed' and any user LOD's. 'all parts' and 'all components' do not appear in the list (however these LOD's are definitely still present in the assembly).
Therefore I had to copy the LOD 'all components supressed' to make a user LOD. I was then able to use this for the parts list. Again though, is there a reason you suggested 'all parts' rather than 'all components'? I am currently using the later.

Ok, so that said I will move on to performance.

First off I placed the parts list on the IDW with the all parts suppressed LOD. This took 2:30 to perform, memory useage bar only 25% and green. 23947 / 1680 occurences/files. Good so far.
Placing the main view of the derived sub assy's took approx 2mins. Bar now 75% and yellow. 23947 / 1732.

I then shut down and re-opened IV to clear the cache. once reopened bar was 40% and green.

That is as far as I have got. I assume that in order to avoid assigning items to the derived bits I need to make them phantom. However if I do that, I can no longer attach a balloon to each one in the drawing? How do I place balloons in this case?

I will post again as I progress.
Message 10 of 12
Anonymous
in reply to: dan

Hi Dan,

Please email me directly at peter.maxfield (a) autodesk.com

Kind regards,
Pete

wrote in message news:5616344@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks for the reply Peter.

Below are my observations and questions on each of your points since trialing your
suggestions. I have started a fresh IDW for testing purposes.

1) For some reason, if I open the 'master' assembly with a LOD activated (eg all parts
suppressed) and attempt to open the BOM inventor crashes (disappears, leaving report
window) consistently, 100% of the time. I am only able to access the BOM if I am on master
LOD.
Also, is there a reason you say use 'all parts suppressed' rather than 'all components
suppressed'? I would expect components to be a quicker way of working as even less is
loaded into memory?

2) When I go to place the parts list and browse to my master assembly the only LOD's I am
offered are the master, 'all contents center suppressed' and any user LOD's. 'all parts'
and 'all components' do not appear in the list (however these LOD's are definitely still
present in the assembly).
Therefore I had to copy the LOD 'all components supressed' to make a user LOD. I was then
able to use this for the parts list. Again though, is there a reason you suggested 'all
parts' rather than 'all components'? I am currently using the later.

Ok, so that said I will move on to performance.

First off I placed the parts list on the IDW with the all parts suppressed LOD. This took
2:30 to perform, memory useage bar only 25% and green. 23947 / 1680 occurences/files. Good
so far.
Placing the main view of the derived sub assy's took approx 2mins. Bar now 75% and
yellow. 23947 / 1732.

I then shut down and re-opened IV to clear the cache. once reopened bar was 40% and green.

That is as far as I have got. I assume that in order to avoid assigning items to the
derived bits I need to make them phantom. However if I do that, I can no longer attach a
balloon to each one in the drawing? How do I place balloons in this case?

I will post again as I progress.
Message 11 of 12
ian.solomon
in reply to: dan

A trick to lower the memory footprint may be to suppress the link between the derived parts and their base assemblies. This ensures you are only loading 'dumb' solids, rather than the derived part referencing the whole assembly

Ian
Message 12 of 12
Anonymous
in reply to: dan

Dan,

1) Inventor should not crash in any event. This does sound like a bug.
Please send me an email, if you are willing to share the dataset. I can
provide you with a secure site to upload the dataset. "All Parts Suppressed"
means only the part documents are suppressed and subassembly docs are not
suppressed. "All Components Suppressed" means all the part documents and
subassembly docs are suppressed. However, whenever you launch BOM Editor,
Inventor loads all the part and subassembly documents behind the scene to
maintain BOM integrity. When the dialog is dismissed, Inventor quietly
unloads all the documents. It might sound counter-intuitive that "All Parts
Suppressed" would work better with BOM than "All Components Suppressed."
There is a reason behind it: all the unloading and reloading takes time.
Subassembly iam files by themselves are very compact. If "All Components
Suppressed" is used, Inventor will have to unload and reload subassembly iam
files constantly with BOM Editor on and off by digging through nested
assembly structure along with underlying parts docs. While, in "All Parts
Suppressed", the assembly structure is preserved at all time. Unloading and
reloading is pretty straight-forward and will take less time than "All
Component Suppressed." Certainly, for capacity concern, "All Components
Suppressed" is always superior to "All Parts Suppressed", since all the
documents are unloaded as opposed to only part documents are unloaded.

2) The issue has been sent to respective team for review.

Regarding the performance, we will have to have the dataset in order to
determine where the problem is. Please send me an email, so I can set up an
account for you at a secure site to upload. Only the people directly working
with the issue will gain access to the data.
Thanks!


Johnson Shiue
Test Engineer
Autodesk
(email: johnsonDOTshiueATautodeskDOTcom)
wrote in message news:5616344@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks for the reply Peter.

Below are my observations and questions on each of your points since
trialing your suggestions. I have started a fresh IDW for testing purposes.

1) For some reason, if I open the 'master' assembly with a LOD activated (eg
all parts suppressed) and attempt to open the BOM inventor crashes
(disappears, leaving report window) consistently, 100% of the time. I am
only able to access the BOM if I am on master LOD.
Also, is there a reason you say use 'all parts suppressed' rather than 'all
components suppressed'? I would expect components to be a quicker way of
working as even less is loaded into memory?

2) When I go to place the parts list and browse to my master assembly the
only LOD's I am offered are the master, 'all contents center suppressed' and
any user LOD's. 'all parts' and 'all components' do not appear in the list
(however these LOD's are definitely still present in the assembly).
Therefore I had to copy the LOD 'all components supressed' to make a user
LOD. I was then able to use this for the parts list. Again though, is there
a reason you suggested 'all parts' rather than 'all components'? I am
currently using the later.

Ok, so that said I will move on to performance.

First off I placed the parts list on the IDW with the all parts suppressed
LOD. This took 2:30 to perform, memory useage bar only 25% and green. 23947
/ 1680 occurences/files. Good so far.
Placing the main view of the derived sub assy's took approx 2mins. Bar now
75% and yellow. 23947 / 1732.

I then shut down and re-opened IV to clear the cache. once reopened bar was
40% and green.

That is as far as I have got. I assume that in order to avoid assigning
items to the derived bits I need to make them phantom. However if I do that,
I can no longer attach a balloon to each one in the drawing? How do I place
balloons in this case?

I will post again as I progress.

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