Particles

[HalloweenJack2]

Hi folks,

Is there any news that Particles might get reworked at some point?

When I've gtried to use them I've been dissapointed with the results.

They manage to be too simple and too complex at the same time, if you get me 🙂

Very simple Particle animators with no wind, turbulance, resistance etc. 

And very complicated to get anything approaching organic movement.

I end up with complicated setups that I don't fully understand but with very basic looking results.

I have tried to do floating dust, but particles seem to always move in straight lines or spirals. Is there some way to randomise their paths a bit?

I also can't see a way to have them fade out at end of life. They just cut off with is awkward.

And I've tried to get text to turn into Smoke or particles ( 🙂 ) and drift randomly away in the breeze... I got absolutely nowhere with this plan. 

So has anyone got anywhere with this, know any tutorials, or heard any plans for new modules?

Thanks

[arichards]

I'm not a Flame user but a Smoke user and a while back, when presets were available by finding the directory in Smoke's, I loaded it up and was also a little disapointed by how they really aren't 3d and don't operate in 3d space. They are in their own space and thus they really are 2.5 and thus you can't truly have them interact with elements in your comp. On a simple level you can never have anything move through them. I was also hoping that you could use them for subtle atmospherics to give some 'body' to the space also, but they didn't seem to offer any of this. There is a lot of 'room' to give 'room' to particles and much as I would love to see them in Smoke, the way that they are implmented does not in any way blow my mind into whining that they are absent in Smoke. I say do a radical redesign of them and have them operate properly in the overall 3d space, allow more subtelety and then trickle these currrent ones down to Smoke for around 3 years and then have them in Smoke also. There needs to be much more movement with some of these existing features and there is SO much room in Flame and Smoke to improve on these nodes and tools instead of leaving them for so many years once they're coded.

Cheers

Tony 

[Grant.Kay]

Hi Tony,

I just need to correct you here.

The particle system inside of Flame is actually 3D and it does react within the Flame 3D environment. It is a matter of how you set up and control your particles within the 3D environment that determines their behaviour.

I have seen enough particle setups in the past to confirm this.

I dont disagree with an update but I needed to clarify this to you.

Regards
Grant

[Grant.Kay]

Hi 🙂

I cannot comment on the future of features but it has been well noted by the team.

I agree that some things are more complicated than they should be however all the options you are after are definitely achievable with the current available particle system in Action.

For randomisation and particle fading (lifetime) is typically driven through a particle behaviour using an expression.

I have not looked at my notes but I believe the expressino to fade particle over time is  transparency = lifetimeI

In answer to your question about text breaking up into particles and blowing away, I believe this can be acheived by using the text geometry as a particle generator and using a particle manipulator to create the wind effect.   I would have to do more research to get a working method.

There are no tutorials that I am aware of but there are the particle presets which are worth a look at because they might give you a few ideas and you can break down their structure.

If I was to do any of these videos it would only be in the new year.

Apologies that I can be any more helpful.

Regards

Grant

[arichards]

Well I'm suitably corrected Grant, but I am sure that I remember having a conversation with someone on the beta board a few moons ago about them not operating within the same total environment. I remember trying for quite a few attempts to have an object moving through a particle (smoke, as I seem to remember) in 3d space. The renderer defaults to layers (z buffer off) and then when you put the z buffer on the lighting goes all to pot and you see lots of artefacts that mean you cannot see the particles in their true light. I played around with it for quite a while but could never get the particles looking like they do with z buffer off. It was either one or the other, but not both. Thus it didn't seem to me to be a workable solution of having objects within the same global space when their look was hampered so much by the renderer. I am sure I saw similar arguments and resonances with others?

Cheers

Tony

[Grant.Kay]

Hi Tony,

Not to start an arguement here but I dont recall that you have every used Flame... only Smoke.  

If this is the case and you loaded an old particle setup into Smoke, you would not have had access to any of the proper particle controls as there are quite a few options to deal with various 3D situations.  

The standard Z-buffer switch in the ConnectFX preferences would not be the solution to the sorting issue which you are refering too.

There is no other made-up environment within Action for particles, it all exists within the same compositor.  

I will re-iterate that the team knows it will need an update at some point however it is very capable of doing alot of things provided you overcome the steep learning curve...

Regards

Grant

[arichards]

Hi Grant,

"Not to start an argument here but I dont recall that you have ever[y] used Flame... only Smoke."

And yet I do sense a certain scent of polemical overtone. I'm not however hurt, worried or presently springing into a defensive posture  as I quite like a bit of polemics sometimes, so do feel freeer. So yes I have overstepped my mark and wandered somewhat carelessly into a forum and an issue to which I do not properly belong, and so am not properly equipped and from which I should quickly retreat. I've never shot with one of those, but only one of these. 

Yes in eagerness to have a look at the particles I noticed a few years ago a directory ("particle presets") through which one could get access to the said presets by dragging the preset into the Action schematic and then navigating to it. Though Smoke gave official access only to the text and lens flare presets, I found that you could load the available particle presets, until that directory was deleted from the builds, probably as a result of me or someone pointing this out. Yes there were many options ghosted but you could play with it a bit. It seems that this play however, and also with the reduced set of parameters, meant that I mistook the latitude that it allowed you viz the ability to have objects move through the particles and occupy their space with sufficient render quality. It seems that I was missing the parameter variables and the know-how to be able to do so. So, as some scorcers apprentice, I thought I had the answers when I really had none. I was not equiped to fire the gun to to fire the Flame and thus left with a somewhat reduced puff of Smoke (to labour the parallel). SO yup, I humbly withdraw from this (non)fight and withdraw from this forum and will stick to the Smoke side of the street (but you'll notice that I don't visit too much these days due to losing some heart in Smoke's development cycle and many other things mentioned on the somewhat dark side of AD'sz lack of care that go without saying and for which I hold you, as a front line "op" in no way responsible for: I am fond of your tutorials and your help-full-ness). I do however stick to the guns of the need to refresh many tools and am investing in a licence of NukeStudio because I am worried that Smoke is being slowly depreciated and be under-appreciated. But that's a whole other thread and I don't want to step on more mines and get into more trouble. Peace out Grant.

Cheers

Tony

[tim-d]

Wow, that's a long one...

Yes particles are well overdue for an overhaul (as is the text module) but I suppose we have to be realistic for now and celebrate the fact Flame is being reborn. I'm sure (hope?) there's much much more to come... I've done lots of jobs with particles which have worked out brilliantly, others didn't make it out of the test pad cos they're too difficult to manipulate and make look good (trapcode is a hard one to beat). I remember the OpenGL Combustion particles, even they would be a nice addition at the moment as a quick 'off-the-shelf' alternative.

Ps. had to google 'polemical', sorry I'm a pictures man!

[HalloweenJack2]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes I used Trapcode Particular in After Effects. It's great. Very natural looking and doesn't take long to work out what's what. 

Logical and user friendly you might say.

Glad you responded Grant. In fact there was a slight hint in this thread 😉

I'm sure you've got your hands full with tutorials for new release features, but if you at a loss at any time I'd be very interested in seeing some of the more advanced or steep curved features. 

Particles for one, all the stange nodes like Substance textures and parallax stuff that pops up when you load some presets, Analyser Node.

 I havent made up a list yet but there are some nodes I have no idea where to start with.

Or how about Lustre? A tutorial from you would certainly speed up the learning process 🙂

Cheers

[lustrecolorist]

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@HalloweenJack2 wrote:

Or how about Lustre? A tutorial from you would certainly speed up the learning process 🙂

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Lyne Lepage has a very good Lustre MasterClass series here:

http://area.autodesk.com/masterclasses/masterclass/class4_q1_2013_lyne_lepage_Taking_a_Project_from_...

[tim-d]

Wow, that's a long one...

Yes particles are well overdue for an overhaul (as is the text module) but I suppose we have to be realistic for now and celebrate the fact Flame is being reborn. I'm sure (hope?) there's much much more to come... I've done lots of jobs with particles which have worked out brilliantly, others didn't make it out of the test pad cos they're too difficult to manipulate and make look good (trapcode is a hard one to beat). I remember the OpenGL Combustion particles, even they would be a nice addition at the moment as a quick 'off-the-shelf' alternative.

Ps I had to google 'polemical', is that bad?

Sent from my iPad

[HalloweenJack2]

Cool. will check that out.

[IgorRidanovic]

That was my impression too that the particles are "too much and too little" at the same time. For one thing, even with the long discontinued Combustion, the particle system (Illusion) was very quick to use. It would produce very decent results, although only 2D.

It feels like it is possible to do fairly complex effects with the Flame particle system as-is, but it is very slow to deploy. For one thing, the 3D calculation when 3D is unecessary slows it down. Also, some bread and butter parameters like life-over-time are available through expressions only which is fine for flexibility but not conducive for fast work.