Please support "local only" files

[Anonymous]

Please add support for people creating and using Fusion 360 files that only exist on the local system, and are never transmitted to the cloud (for any reason).

The present situation (Cloud only) excludes everyone who works on confidential (for any reason) designs.

For them to use Fusion 360 means they need to learn and use two tools (eg Solidworks + Fusion 360, Rhino + Fusion 360, etc).  At a guess :), most people won't bother, and will just keep using/investing in their current tools (eg Solidworks, Rhino, whatever).

Adding support for "local only" files should allow these people to then use Fusion 360, potentially moving to it as their primary platform.

Note - This "idea" seems to have been skirted around before (eg http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-ideastation-request-a/cloud-and-online-work/idi-p/4652787), but not directly requested.

[roambotics_scott]

Well I see it this way: if it is in the cloud it can be hacked. Period.

Eh.. if the system is designed and implemented well*, it can be about as secure as anything on your desktop with an Internet connection.

I see both sides of this issue, but Fusion 360 was built with the cloud as the backbone.

I don't think that's actually true.

It started out as Inventor Fusion and the cloud got shoehorned in at some point later on. It's integral enough now but I don't believe that it was architected to be cloud-centric.

Down for the day may be a little extreme. Yeah, there will be outtages but they seem to have been pretty minimal so far. How often does the network at a corporation go offline or have issues?

Every time you fly or they have scheduled downtime. I pay for good connectivity at home but it's still novelty slow to do very simple things like upload a ~40kb .STEP file for importing.

It's the exception not the rule for me to have a consistently have a fast and reliable network connection when I travel.

The security part gives me bad feelings but I'm relatively indifferent to. General flakiness and slowness interrupts my workflow though and few things annoy me so much as wasting my time.

* not a small if or one that I have any confidence that AD could / would actually figure out especially given that I'm still seeing the «insecure form» thing here.

[cekuhnen]

Comcast is good but when they are out it can take hours to a day.

plus when mobile current offline mode is limited.

if you work on sensitive data you use an intranet cut off fro the Internet 

[schneik-adsk]

Interesting discussions. As to the seed idea - a local only version of Fusion 360. That is not going to happen. We know for some, that means they can't use Fusion 360. We are pulling together a more detailed explanation and will be posting soon but as to this idea, we wanted to be up front and adress it sooner rather than later.

[daniel_lyall]

you know this is a good way of losing customer's`s may be only a couple 00. it`s good there is a way around the problem going off line for up to 30 days or have a A360 drive on your computer.

you would of been better giving a reason first before just saying no, have fun with the bite back

[Anonymous]

@schneik-adsk Thanks for addressing this up front.  As an alternative approach, would AD consider making the "Cloud" (server side) of things available for local/intranet install?

Really looking for a solution here that respects IP. eg allowing people to keep their designs internal.

[roambotics_scott]

@schneik-adsk I'm not expecting to change any minds but to me this just smacks of dogmatism.

It sounds and feels like you're blindly following the commandment «Thou shalt make the app dependent on the cloud» without any consideration of «why?» or «what are we trying to achieve?».

It should be 

«Thou shalt make user data ubiquitous across devices, make collaboration easy, and leverage networked storage and compute»

Both will lead you to a lot of cloud services, but the former will cause you to make foolish and silly decisions, while the latter will cause you to make much better ones that focus on what the users actually want and need (and I'd bet both are compatible with your current architecture as a starting point).

As to @Anonymous's request, if your provisioning is reasonably automated and configuration of the app is factored out into some sort of a settings file, AWS has a thing called «virtual private cloud».. It's nontrivial but probably not that hard to offer that to users (though I'm guessing that it'd be silly for anyone who would be in the market for F360 at this point; the people with the resources required would more likely just go with SW or NX).

[Anonymous]

@roambotics_scott I get your point about AWS.  However, it's still an external entity holding the data.  So, not going to fly. 😉

[roambotics_scott]

Yeah that makes sense and I don't think it's a viable solution anyway (AD woudn't do it anyway and it'd just give you mild warm fuzzies without actually making anything more secure).

I'd say «throw it in Docker» but they're using S3 and probably a few other services besides EC2 so that wouldn't help at all either.

It's this kind of bone-headedness that keeps the app perpetually hamstrung.

[schneik-adsk]

I can't answer every idea and question in the comments but I did sit down and try and represent the thinking behind our direction for another thread. I am reposting here. I ask the community to recognize that there are a lot of opinions on this subject. I can only hope to clarify our intentions. I am sure some of you will continue to disagree with the direction. I respect and understand that.

The short answer is...

Fusion 360 was envisioned from the start as cloud based.  Our team had worked on a desktop application called Inventor Fusion and we realized we wanted to build a ground breaking new 20-year vision. It was founded on connecting teams and design disciplines together in an integrated solution. There is much of that vision not available yet. It was a 20-year idea after all... but, there are real benefits that are there today. Most obvious is Fusion 360 desktop client data is available in the web and mobile clients and on other devices with versions that are managed automatically. This is already an advantage over desktop based tools.

There are other more subtly but important advantages.  Rename for example.  Renaming a SolidWorks part (without using special tools) will break any referencing assembly.  Moving a SolidWorks part will break any referencing assembly.  In Fusion 360 you can rename and move designs and any references will automatically know.  In SolidWorks every assembly always opens the latest version of the parts you have on disk.  Fusion 360 assembly references are version aware. This means when you roll back to an older version you will see that assembly exactly as that version was at that time in history including all of the child parts.  Fusion 360 data can be shared with others using a public share.  This share can allow others to self serve and download the file in the format they need.  Fusion 360 data has a built in activity feed that lets you see versions and activity. This allows others to comment on designs and for this activity to be stored as part of a project keeping a history of changes and decisions. You get all this today without having to purchase EPDM, purchase Box/Dropbox or have a vault and data admin.

Using cloud technology as our platform helps ensure Fusion 360 is always the same version across the community so you can share data with other users and not worry about forward or backwards compatibility (Apple app store approval for Mac app store version can lag unfortunately).  Fusion data is translated via cloud translation so that we are able to offer OS X users access to data that typically is not accessible on a MAC.

Other advantages over desktop tools is the ability for remote services to work on your data asynchronously as you work or sleep. Today renderings can be offloaded to be rendered using a cloud based compute grid for example.

Let's look at some of the benefits that we could deliver in the future that would not be possible with desktop based data.  There will be additional clients that you can use to edit and create data. New clients like zero-browser clients and mobile clients that have access to your projects without any install. This will give you and your teams the ultimate flexibility to access and edit your data.

More services will be able to act on your benefit. Cloud grid computing will enable simulation studies, multi-variable design optimization and generative design tools. It will enable you to propagate change and have services update assemblies, drawings toolpaths and report on success or failure freeing designers to spend more time designing. It enables configurable parts to be deployed in engineer to order tools. It will enable 3rd parties to create new vertical solutions that can connect and enrich your projects no matter the device or your location.

Branch and merge of assemblies is built into the underlying data services for Fusion 360 and will allow individuals or teams to better manage change and explore design ideas. Branching and merging of design data is a nightmare to try and emulate on a desktop with folders and CAD file names. These are only some of the benefits that we think using the cloud as our platform will enable for you.

I think we have have been up front that Fusion 360 is cloud based.  We do not promote it as a desktop design app and we would not want to mislead anyone that it is. I know that requests to make Fusion 360 a desktop app comes from an appreciation of how the design tool works and from a lack of appreciation of how the cloud service might benefit you.  The benefit of cloud as a platform will take time to realize its' full potential. We are committed to take the time to listen to feedback from the community on that future direction and deliver on it, but, the feedback has to fit into the guardrails of the underlying product vision and values.  Please don't misunderstand me. Resistance to ideas to "go desktop data" is not because of a disdain for you or ignorance of your desires. We have core values for what Fusion 360 can be and tying ourselves to the problems and solutions that were right for the last 20 years will constrain us trying to solve the challenges of the next 20 years.

I hope some of what we offer above and beyond desktop tools today is of value to you. I also hope what we will be able to offer in the future is of even more value to you. If it is not, then Fusion 360 might not be the right tool for you. That's O.K.  We want to help people design and make their ideas real.  There are other tools that might be a better fit and we can help point you in those directions. Now you may say that we could do all this on the desktop or that we should "Just do both." I hope some of the complexity of the capability above shows that this just has not been possible with local and file based data.  Current tools have been trying to solve these problems for the last 20+ years and have not been able to do so. You might be able to get some of the above benefits with large very expensive and complex IT infrastructure but nowhere will you find all this available to hobbyist and students for free and to commercial customers for $40 to $100 per month.

... and this was the short answer

I will add one more thought here. We know there are industries that don't allow the use of cloud data today. We are internationally, and I hope honestly, acknowledge that, for now, Fusion 360 is not a fit for some users or industries . I can't quite understand the perspective where some in the community see this as an insult. It is not our intent as we have been clear that cloud as a platform is one of our core values.  There are so many great design tools and each of us just want to realize our ideas. The fact that you may not agree with this direction does not mean that it that is true for others. I Fusion 360 is not a good and there is anything we can do to help users find a tool this is a better fit for their needs we are happy to do.

[Anonymous]

k.  Would it be possible to make the "Cloud" side of things installable (on-premise) by end users then?

That would have all of the collaboration benefits you mention above, AND allow people with confidential data to keep it confidential (in-house).

[roambotics_scott]

Knowing a bit about cloud and distributed systems architecture, I remain much more than a little skeptical and unconvinced about the reasoning given in the «short» answer above. All I read there feels like working backwards from «no»

That said - if AWS is an integral part of F360, the answer would have to be a resounding «no chance».

Even with considerable help from Amazon, replicating a significant chunk of EC2 and S3 (+ whatever else they're using) would be very hard, especially if they're not using a framework that really abstracts out the cloud side.

Virtual Private Cloud within AWS is more doable but it'd still take a lot of development and wouldn't satisfy you.

They *could* (with a bit of effort) put their compute instances in Docker (or similar) and abstract out storage and networking.. but I gather there will be an excuse there as well (unless you were Boeing or Apple or similar).

[daniel_lyall]

@Anonymous you tryed look`s like no way is this going to happen. I would say that inventor is your only way forward or other AD products that are better the one`s AD employes dont know AD own

[Anonymous]

@daniel_lyall Yeah.  I would say there's exactly zero chance I'll be using AD products though.

[mikesr]

I want the ability to save and open local files. Cloud service is only useful under the assumption that several people are colaborating on the same file but many smaller companies (the one i work for included) dont operate this way. Im used to saving everything on our server. Its always saved in the same place (and ofcourse backed up frequently) but to insist on cloud service is a real hidrance because now if I want to use Fusion i cant have anything saved locally. It forces the way companies (and hobyists etc.) operate to change and thats really off-putting.

[Anonymous]

Just curious, why were we told "No it will never happen" and then three minutes later it was marked for "Future Consideration"?

[cekuhnen]

Hi

Think the main reason why some companies hessitate with Fusion 360 is not the cloud but the security aspect.

If you work for GM you have to use a VPN to log into their intra net.

If I want to access my student review data from home I also have to use the VPN.

Bissle shares data with China via their Server.

I send data to Intel Mobile just vie encryted zip files.

I think with Fusion 360 clients dont know how secure the system is and AD also does not explain that well.

Truth is all companies use some sort of internet VPN or intranet system today anyway - kinda funny!

[Anonymous]

Thank you Autodesk for facilitating this conversation.

Just a couple of notes:

For what I do, the fact that I can't save locally, and my data is on a 3rd party server in the cloud makes Fusion 360 a non-starter. It limits the time I can spend learning the product to simple tutorials.  Especially since (as @roambotics_scott generously demonstrated) Amazon services are used. There are lots of opinions, but the those aside, the fact of the matter is my business and work depends on keeping my designs off any network except mine.

Amazon and google web services are a joke in terms of security and controlling who can view my data from inside.  If you're a serious designer with a product and you think Amazon or Google isn't interested in competing with you, then you're sadly mistaken. The user agreements, unfortunately allow both of those companies to view your designs when you use their cloud services.

I do not have any room for error when it comes to this. A good engineer can take a look at a part for just a minute or three and then figure out how to tweak a patent so that I end up having to hire attorneys or, worse, face ex-parte review.  

For anyone who has not gone down that road: patents aside, the risk of even starting a discussion about who owns a design is not something I have the option of risking.

And I'm sad about that because I really like Fusion 360 so far.

[SaschaNitsch]

If there would a be a local 100% offline a.ka. "pull the network cable" version, I would consider the Ultimate subscription, even if I'm using F360 only for hobby purposes with the free license.

But right now, there are 2 main showstoppers for me and both won't be fixed by AD: a pure offline version and a linux version, see https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/ideastation-request-a-feature-or/linux/idi-p/4530727.

I can not run my linux controlled CNC mill in my apartment (for obvious reasons) and I do not have internet connection at my workshop, not even via mobile phone.

My laptop is not fast enough to run F360 (plus a VM), but I could unplug the desktop computer, get it in the car, drive over and reconnect everything and work there for an hour, unplug and drive back... (well, not really)

Having an extra computer there does not help, because of missing internet and the no local data exchange via USB media.

I use F360 for the CAD/CAM to generate G-Code and hope that feeds/speed work on the first try.

Iterations take 1 hour roundtrip travel time or manually editing the G-Code on location.

After doing my first experiments, I started an offline workaround for the real stuff (not uploaded somewhere).

My main desktop machine uses a VM without network access, neither Windows or F360 will connect to anything remote.

I only enable network through a hardware firewall and proxy for a minute if F360 forces me to during login/startup.

Not enough time to sync anything (hopefully).

Yes, F360 is the only reason I have a windows VM, no I'm not paranoid about my data, I just know too much about data security and "secure" clouds to never ever upload anything except open source stuff.

Hopefully some company steps up and takes the chance to get my money. AD seems to not want it.

[daniel_lyall]

since linux can use dropbox you have that option for G code storage or the file a 3G phone will work for that or it's sd card.

You can stick the G code on a stick and use sneaker net you only need a text editor for that.

you can send the Gcode over a network.

Now the good news there is going to be a browser version of fusion, I don't know what licences you will need for it or if it will cost anything (probably not) you just use your A360 drive for that what's browser based.

you can remove all files from fusion by exporting them out, and putting them on some sort of portable drive or in another computer, then connect ounces every 60 or 30 days a phone net connection will take care of that.

And one last point you can save the F3d file out from fusion put it on a stick and open it from another computer that has fusion on it you just need to connect ounces every 60 or 30 days on that computer.

The feed and speed it's on you to learn that per tool and material you can get a program to do that for you now fusion does not have that yet.

If they were to do a linux version dev will slow down that much it would not be funny that's where the browser version comes in you can open any file you do in the browser in fusion desktop.