Design Review

Design Review

Reply
*HarryS
Message 1 of 26 (149 Views)

When will we get a "real" viewer?

149 Views, 25 Replies
07-12-2004 07:56 PM
I just don't get it. Adesk keep renaming the same old code, and reflogging it with new bugs. I just installed composer, so whats new? BTW The DWFwriter install off the CD didn't work, but I installed the R2 copy I'd already d/l from the net. Composer doesn't even open DWG's ??? But my real question is when will we get a REAL "DATA" viewer? I don't really care if it works with DWG,DXF,DWF or DGN for that matter, Sure I want to be able to open CAD data files, zoom / pan & print etc, but and it's a big but.....I can do all that with a JPG or a PDF. I don't want "electronic paper", ..... I want *** CAD *** data. Bottom line I want ATTRIBUTES, XRECORDS, FIELDS, XDATA accessable in my viewer! Like i said, I just don't get it, what is so hard about including ths? PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a "buzzsaw" actually is?
*Anne Brown
Message 2 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 05:34 AM in reply to: *HarryS
A circular saw - so called from the buzzing it makes when running at full speed. --- Anne Brown Discussion Groups Administrator Autodesk, Inc. HarryS wrote: (snip) > > PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a > "buzzsaw" actually is?
*Rodney McManamy - CADzation
Message 3 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 05:41 AM in reply to: *HarryS
For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. You basically want access to everything in the native file so even though the DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to be a lightweight representation of the drawing. As you start including the other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 more have to access that. I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to view it and print it. So for 80% of the people being able to view a dumb lightweight version of the dwg ("electronic paper") is all they need and hence the current publishing for DWF works. For the rest of us we can either create our own publishing since the API and toolkit are open and free or we can wait until Autodesk has satisfied the main 80% and get time to work on the solutions for the other 20%. From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. Then you'll get somebody who wants X and Y from the attibuttes and Z from the XData and A and B from the fields and so on. And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are just going to get confused. We still come across users that don't know the difference beetween paperspace and modelspace. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "HarryS" wrote in message news:40f34f7d$1_2@newsprd01... > I just don't get it. Adesk keep renaming the same old code, and reflogging > it with new bugs. > I just installed composer, so whats new? > BTW The DWFwriter install off the CD didn't work, but I installed the R2 > copy I'd already d/l from the net. > Composer doesn't even open DWG's ??? > > > But my real question is when will we get a REAL "DATA" viewer? > I don't really care if it works with DWG,DXF,DWF or DGN for that matter, > Sure I want to be able to open CAD data files, zoom / pan & print etc, > but and it's a big but.....I can do all that with a JPG or a PDF. > I don't want "electronic paper", ..... I want *** CAD *** data. > > Bottom line > I want ATTRIBUTES, XRECORDS, FIELDS, XDATA accessable in my viewer! > > Like i said, I just don't get it, what is so hard about including ths? > > > PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a > "buzzsaw" actually is? > > >
*Richard
Message 4 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 07:29 AM in reply to: *HarryS
Hi Rodney > For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. I don't agree. I think he is looking for "read only" type access > DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to > be a lightweight representation of the drawing. Again, not sure I agree, I mean the DWF has layer & layoout info? >As you start including the > other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and > soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. And 3D DWF does what? add a z coord to each point? I think Attribute data would be a lot more useful than z coords! > Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 more > have to access that. And I would agree if the CAD data did have data attributes / values, then those 10 people would have more useful info :-) >I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe > 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to > view it and print it. Why not send them a print & save the hassle then? I think that point sort of contradicts the purpose of CAD data, (maybe)? > From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next > person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is > going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. Attribute visability controls are already in the ATTDEF? DWF simply needs to show the info. > And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users > probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with >so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are just going > to get confused. wow, big leap there! Are you really saying "only give the masses basic dumb tools, 'cause they are dumb & wouldn't know how to get their heads around them?" Big jump there, esp since you put yourself in the "elite" group who can develop your own stuff. > We still come across users that don't know the difference > beetween paperspace and modelspace. So do we, but that doesn't mea Adesk have to develop only for that minority. Rodney, nothing personal, but I think I'll have to agree to disagree with you point of view. Maybe our clients & their requirements are a totally different to yours & your clients. Richard. > > -- > Rodney McManamy > President > CADzation > ------------------------- > rmcmanamy@cadzation.com > ------------------------- > 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 > McHenry, IL 60050 > www.cadzation.com > Providing Industrial Strength > PDF & DWF Solutions to the > Global CAD Marketplace. >
*Don Wilson
Message 5 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 12:51 PM in reply to: *HarryS
I would have to agree with Rodney on this issue. See comments below -- Don Wilson "Richard" wrote in message news:40f3f1c5_1@newsprd01... > Hi Rodney > > > For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. > > I don't agree. I think he is looking for "read only" type access Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files themselves. > > > DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to > > be a lightweight representation of the drawing. > > Again, not sure I agree, I mean the DWF has layer & layoout info? I do agree. This is a WYSIWYG environment that most people I know of prefer. Dealing with the colors in a dwg typically confuses most non AutoCAD people. If you don't deal with the colors on a daily basis it can be difficult (for anyone really) to picture what prints black, gray, .25mm, or 1mm. In 99% of my dealings the recipient just needs to see the plan as it's intended to print, with no layer or object manipulation whatsoever needed. The other 1% the plans were designed with layers to isolate aspects of the plan for clarity or display. The layout information is to allow for multiple layouts within the same drawing to publish individually. > >As you start including the > > other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and > > soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. > > And 3D DWF does what? add a z coord to each point? > I think Attribute data would be a lot more useful than z coords! I too want to publish 3D dwf's, but this is just to present the design data to a wider group. Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. > > > Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 > more > > have to access that. > > And I would agree if the CAD data did have data attributes / values, then > those 10 people would have more useful info :-) > > >I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe > > 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to > > view it and print it. > > Why not send them a print & save the hassle then? > I think that point sort of contradicts the purpose of CAD data, (maybe)? I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if they want without having to worry about print configuration files or be confused by the multitude of colors. > > From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next > > person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is > > going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. > > Attribute visability controls are already in the ATTDEF? DWF simply needs to > show > the info. For those instances where all the attribute data is needed, it should be set to visible with ATTDEF as you mentioned. For those instances where there are invisible attributes just set the ATTDISP to on when viewing this data is necessary then publish. Typically the invisible data is for populating schedules which can be included as a > > And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users > > probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with > >so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are > just going > > to get confused. > > wow, big leap there! Are you really saying "only give the masses basic dumb > tools, 'cause > they are dumb & wouldn't know how to get their heads around them?" > Big jump there, esp since you put yourself in the "elite" group who can > develop your own stuff. I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need attribute data, or they utilize specs for this so there is no duplication or contradiction of data. With all my dealings if people need to see that kind of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. > > We still come across users that don't know the difference > > beetween paperspace and modelspace. > > So do we, but that doesn't mea Adesk have to develop only for that minority. > > Rodney, nothing personal, but I think I'll have to agree to disagree with > you point of view. > Maybe our clients & their requirements are a totally different to yours & > your clients. Your clients may have totally different requirements, but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract what they need. > > Richard. > > > > > -- > > Rodney McManamy > > President > > CADzation > > ------------------------- > > rmcmanamy@cadzation.com > > ------------------------- > > 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 > > McHenry, IL 60050 > > www.cadzation.com > > Providing Industrial Strength > > PDF & DWF Solutions to the > > Global CAD Marketplace. > > > >
*Richard
Message 6 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 05:25 PM in reply to: *HarryS
Hi Don > Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files themselves. I guess it depends on how you see ACAD I think we look at it as an "editor" OTOH we see the DWF format as a way to see / read data produced by an editor. I think you missed my point re layers & layouts. What I meant was, that is just Symbol table data....An if Adesk are looking at inc Arch DT properties, why not simple attributes? > Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be > using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. Again I think you missed the point I was intending. I'm suggesting that Attributes type data would take up less data space than 3D z coords on all objects. > I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see > plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide > that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if they > want without having to worry about print configuration files or be confused > by the multitude of colors. Absolutely DWF or PDF do this, infact PDF is more widely used / known IMHO Even a PLT file will provide this basic functionality. > I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need attribute data, That wasn't my point. Rodney said "make dumb tools for dumb people" which I hope Adesk never agree with. Including Dwgprops or Attribute or xdata would be one way for Adesk to differenciate DWF from PDF in the market place. > With all my dealings if people need to see that kind > of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. OK. But imagine if........ > but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract what they need. That's what we do, because that is our only option........until we get a better viewer like Harry asked for! :-) Richard.
*Rodney McManamy - CADzation
Message 7 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 08:42 PM in reply to: *HarryS
Richard, Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. Autodesk has been providing it for years and it has worked great. He doesn't want electronic paper which is what PDF and DWF were designed to be. DWF and PDF are published formats and created through the print process, they are not design formats. Sure Autodesk is going to add in 3D and smart objects that can display properties and such but all of this is going to take time and in reality it's only going to be used by maybe 20% of the user base that uses DWF. But keep in mind that the smarter you make the DWF or the PDF the easier it is for someone to reverse engineer the file right back into a DWG. So it get's to the point where you might as well just send them the DWG anyways. As for 3D DWF I haven't had a chance yet to fully look at the specs but I think it's mainly for solid modeling the ACIS objects and for 2D flat drawings there will still be no Z Coordinate. This is why Inventor is going to be the first program to support it because the DWF is not created through the standard print process. I also in no words said that Autodesk should make "make dumb tools for dumb people". What I said is: So for 80% of the people being able to view a dumb lightweight version of the dwg ("electronic paper") is all they need and hence the current publishing for DWF works. Autodesk so far had done exactly what they should. They have worked on improving the DWF format and making it better for the majority of the users. The 80% that need nothing more than a digital representation of what the drawing would look like if printed. The other 20% can wait for future tools, create their own, or use AutoCAD if they have to have an intelligent file that they can transmit to the client. As far as I know you can put all the intelligent data you want in a file format but legally none of that is going to stand up in court if it's not displayed on the viewable and printable drawing. Sure it makes nice bells and whistles and makes some people's jobs easier but most of the worlds greatest engineering wonders have still been built from paper drawings. Don't get me wrong, I have spent the last 2.5 years now working on nothing but PDF and DWF for our customers and there are huge savings by going digital. But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and print and not modify. Very few even care about digital markup because they know that for an engineering size drawing their client is likely going to print it out to look it over. But for every plot they don't have to send by overnight Fed Ex they save big bucks. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "Richard" wrote in message news:40f47d86_3@newsprd01... > Hi Don > > > Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files > themselves. > > I guess it depends on how you see ACAD I think we look at it as an "editor" > OTOH we see the DWF format as a way to see / read data produced by an > editor. > > I think you missed my point re layers & layouts. > What I meant was, that is just Symbol table data....An if Adesk are looking > at inc > Arch DT properties, why not simple attributes? > > > Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be > > using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. > > Again I think you missed the point I was intending. I'm suggesting that > Attributes type data > would take up less data space than 3D z coords on all objects. > > > > I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see > > plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide > > that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if > they > > want without having to worry about print configuration files or be > confused > > by the multitude of colors. > > Absolutely DWF or PDF do this, infact PDF is more widely used / known IMHO > Even a PLT file will provide this basic functionality. > > > I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need > attribute data, > > That wasn't my point. Rodney said "make dumb tools for dumb people" which I > hope > Adesk never agree with. > > Including Dwgprops or Attribute or xdata would be one way for Adesk to > differenciate DWF from PDF in the market place. > > > > With all my dealings if people need to see that kind > > of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. > > OK. But imagine if........ > > > but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract > what they need. > > That's what we do, because that is our only option........until we get a > better viewer like Harry asked for! :-) > > Richard. > > > >
*Richard
Message 8 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-13-2004 09:41 PM in reply to: *HarryS
> But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have > a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and print > and not modify. Ahhhh they must be the same clients that send us the DWF's and PDF's for conversion back to DWG so they can work on them. :-) We also offer a scanning service for paper=>dwg conversions. FWIW We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to the source explaining that neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats".
*Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc.
Message 9 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-14-2004 07:18 AM in reply to: *HarryS
Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included with the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. Cheers, -Shaan "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > Richard, > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer.
*Richard
Message 10 of 26 (149 Views)

Re: When will we get a "real" viewer?

07-14-2004 07:43 AM in reply to: *HarryS
Hi Shaan Yes was aware of that, but not what I'm (and I think Harry) where looking for. The point *I* have been trying to make is we don't want PDF relabled as DWF DWF could be so much more. It could be "different" and better so easily. Just (honestly) ask yourself what you say to someone who is using PDF..... First thing that comes to my mind, is "turning Layers on/off" and "support for layouts" Both a great use of CAD "Data" - and by "Data" I don't mean lines & circles, I mean the intelligent info that we all build into our files. Basically the property or symbol table info, the stuff that makes CAD , well CAD, rather than just paper (electronic or otherwise) So now imagine a DWF product that does more.....yea sure it measures distances with osnaps - great But "what if" you could pick on a wall and it reports it's length, the colour its painted and its height. Yes I know that the AEC boys (& Girls) are playing with this.....but "what if" something as simple as picking blocks could show (think tooltip if you like) the attributes on a block. eg move your mouse over a point and have the height show, or over a piece of furniture or bolt and have its manufaturer show as the designer documented it. Like Harry orig said, what is so hard about this? if Layer data can be embedded with the objects, why not attributes. I mean we had Hyperlinks.... And if Attribs work why not fields, xdata, xrecords. If DWF supported Layers, Layouts and "Intelligent CAD Data" then PDF wouldn't even be a consideration IMHO Right now DWF is an "also ran" in a electronic doc race which has a clear (if less suitable) leader. At least that is the view put to us by our clients, and we see as a reasonable point of view. However the way some here view DWF, I get the impression we might all be better of going back to emailing PLT's or posting paper. But some here noted there may be other vested interests at play.....ummmmm Anyhow great for Adesk to jump in. Thanks Shaan. "Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc." wrote in message news:40f540ab$1_2@newsprd01... > Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included with > the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. > > Cheers, > -Shaan > > "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message > news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > > Richard, > > > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data > > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. > >
Announcements
Are you familiar with the Autodesk Expert Elites? The Expert Elite program is made up of customers that help other customers by sharing knowledge and exemplifying an engaging style of collaboration. To learn more, please visit our Expert Elite website.
Need installation help?

Start with some of our most frequented solutions or visit the Installation and Licensing Forum to get help installing your software.