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When will we get a "real" viewer?

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Message 1 of 26
Anonymous
417 Views, 25 Replies

When will we get a "real" viewer?

I just don't get it. Adesk keep renaming the same old code, and reflogging it with new bugs. I just installed composer, so whats new? BTW The DWFwriter install off the CD didn't work, but I installed the R2 copy I'd already d/l from the net. Composer doesn't even open DWG's ??? But my real question is when will we get a REAL "DATA" viewer? I don't really care if it works with DWG,DXF,DWF or DGN for that matter, Sure I want to be able to open CAD data files, zoom / pan & print etc, but and it's a big but.....I can do all that with a JPG or a PDF. I don't want "electronic paper", ..... I want *** CAD *** data. Bottom line I want ATTRIBUTES, XRECORDS, FIELDS, XDATA accessable in my viewer! Like i said, I just don't get it, what is so hard about including ths? PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a "buzzsaw" actually is?
25 REPLIES 25
Message 2 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

A circular saw - so called from the buzzing it makes when running at full speed. --- Anne Brown Discussion Groups Administrator Autodesk, Inc. HarryS wrote: (snip) > > PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a > "buzzsaw" actually is?
Message 3 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. You basically want access to everything in the native file so even though the DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to be a lightweight representation of the drawing. As you start including the other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 more have to access that. I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to view it and print it. So for 80% of the people being able to view a dumb lightweight version of the dwg ("electronic paper") is all they need and hence the current publishing for DWF works. For the rest of us we can either create our own publishing since the API and toolkit are open and free or we can wait until Autodesk has satisfied the main 80% and get time to work on the solutions for the other 20%. From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. Then you'll get somebody who wants X and Y from the attibuttes and Z from the XData and A and B from the fields and so on. And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are just going to get confused. We still come across users that don't know the difference beetween paperspace and modelspace. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "HarryS" wrote in message news:40f34f7d$1_2@newsprd01... > I just don't get it. Adesk keep renaming the same old code, and reflogging > it with new bugs. > I just installed composer, so whats new? > BTW The DWFwriter install off the CD didn't work, but I installed the R2 > copy I'd already d/l from the net. > Composer doesn't even open DWG's ??? > > > But my real question is when will we get a REAL "DATA" viewer? > I don't really care if it works with DWG,DXF,DWF or DGN for that matter, > Sure I want to be able to open CAD data files, zoom / pan & print etc, > but and it's a big but.....I can do all that with a JPG or a PDF. > I don't want "electronic paper", ..... I want *** CAD *** data. > > Bottom line > I want ATTRIBUTES, XRECORDS, FIELDS, XDATA accessable in my viewer! > > Like i said, I just don't get it, what is so hard about including ths? > > > PS While I'm asking whys.....could one of you Yanks please tell me what a > "buzzsaw" actually is? > > >
Message 4 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Rodney > For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. I don't agree. I think he is looking for "read only" type access > DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to > be a lightweight representation of the drawing. Again, not sure I agree, I mean the DWF has layer & layoout info? >As you start including the > other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and > soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. And 3D DWF does what? add a z coord to each point? I think Attribute data would be a lot more useful than z coords! > Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 more > have to access that. And I would agree if the CAD data did have data attributes / values, then those 10 people would have more useful info :-) >I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe > 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to > view it and print it. Why not send them a print & save the hassle then? I think that point sort of contradicts the purpose of CAD data, (maybe)? > From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next > person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is > going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. Attribute visability controls are already in the ATTDEF? DWF simply needs to show the info. > And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users > probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with >so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are just going > to get confused. wow, big leap there! Are you really saying "only give the masses basic dumb tools, 'cause they are dumb & wouldn't know how to get their heads around them?" Big jump there, esp since you put yourself in the "elite" group who can develop your own stuff. > We still come across users that don't know the difference > beetween paperspace and modelspace. So do we, but that doesn't mea Adesk have to develop only for that minority. Rodney, nothing personal, but I think I'll have to agree to disagree with you point of view. Maybe our clients & their requirements are a totally different to yours & your clients. Richard. > > -- > Rodney McManamy > President > CADzation > ------------------------- > rmcmanamy@cadzation.com > ------------------------- > 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 > McHenry, IL 60050 > www.cadzation.com > Providing Industrial Strength > PDF & DWF Solutions to the > Global CAD Marketplace. >
Message 5 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I would have to agree with Rodney on this issue. See comments below -- Don Wilson "Richard" wrote in message news:40f3f1c5_1@newsprd01... > Hi Rodney > > > For everything that you want it's basically called AutoCAD and the dwg. > > I don't agree. I think he is looking for "read only" type access Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files themselves. > > > DWF is going to be able to include some of this it's still really meant to > > be a lightweight representation of the drawing. > > Again, not sure I agree, I mean the DWF has layer & layoout info? I do agree. This is a WYSIWYG environment that most people I know of prefer. Dealing with the colors in a dwg typically confuses most non AutoCAD people. If you don't deal with the colors on a daily basis it can be difficult (for anyone really) to picture what prints black, gray, .25mm, or 1mm. In 99% of my dealings the recipient just needs to see the plan as it's intended to print, with no layer or object manipulation whatsoever needed. The other 1% the plans were designed with layers to isolate aspects of the plan for clarity or display. The layout information is to allow for multiple layouts within the same drawing to publish individually. > >As you start including the > > other information you are just going to be increase the DWF filesize and > > soon you are going to be back up to the size of the dwg. > > And 3D DWF does what? add a z coord to each point? > I think Attribute data would be a lot more useful than z coords! I too want to publish 3D dwf's, but this is just to present the design data to a wider group. Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. > > > Basically Autodesk says for every 1 person creating a drawing that 10 > more > > have to access that. > > And I would agree if the CAD data did have data attributes / values, then > those 10 people would have more useful info :-) > > >I'm guessing that for most companies of that 10 maybe > > 2 actually need to extract out any information and the rest just need to > > view it and print it. > > Why not send them a print & save the hassle then? > I think that point sort of contradicts the purpose of CAD data, (maybe)? I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if they want without having to worry about print configuration files or be confused by the multitude of colors. > > From the publishing side it's not as easy as it sounds because the next > > person may only want the attribute data published and the next person is > > going to want just the Part No. and the Description attributtes published. > > Attribute visability controls are already in the ATTDEF? DWF simply needs to > show > the info. For those instances where all the attribute data is needed, it should be set to visible with ATTDEF as you mentioned. For those instances where there are invisible attributes just set the ATTDISP to on when viewing this data is necessary then publish. Typically the invisible data is for populating schedules which can be included as a > > And then they have to make an easy to use interface because most users > > probably don't know what attributtes and xdata are to begin with > >so as soon as you start givent hem those options in the publishing they are > just going > > to get confused. > > wow, big leap there! Are you really saying "only give the masses basic dumb > tools, 'cause > they are dumb & wouldn't know how to get their heads around them?" > Big jump there, esp since you put yourself in the "elite" group who can > develop your own stuff. I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need attribute data, or they utilize specs for this so there is no duplication or contradiction of data. With all my dealings if people need to see that kind of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. > > We still come across users that don't know the difference > > beetween paperspace and modelspace. > > So do we, but that doesn't mea Adesk have to develop only for that minority. > > Rodney, nothing personal, but I think I'll have to agree to disagree with > you point of view. > Maybe our clients & their requirements are a totally different to yours & > your clients. Your clients may have totally different requirements, but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract what they need. > > Richard. > > > > > -- > > Rodney McManamy > > President > > CADzation > > ------------------------- > > rmcmanamy@cadzation.com > > ------------------------- > > 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 > > McHenry, IL 60050 > > www.cadzation.com > > Providing Industrial Strength > > PDF & DWF Solutions to the > > Global CAD Marketplace. > > > >
Message 6 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Don > Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files themselves. I guess it depends on how you see ACAD I think we look at it as an "editor" OTOH we see the DWF format as a way to see / read data produced by an editor. I think you missed my point re layers & layouts. What I meant was, that is just Symbol table data....An if Adesk are looking at inc Arch DT properties, why not simple attributes? > Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be > using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. Again I think you missed the point I was intending. I'm suggesting that Attributes type data would take up less data space than 3D z coords on all objects. > I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see > plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide > that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if they > want without having to worry about print configuration files or be confused > by the multitude of colors. Absolutely DWF or PDF do this, infact PDF is more widely used / known IMHO Even a PLT file will provide this basic functionality. > I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need attribute data, That wasn't my point. Rodney said "make dumb tools for dumb people" which I hope Adesk never agree with. Including Dwgprops or Attribute or xdata would be one way for Adesk to differenciate DWF from PDF in the market place. > With all my dealings if people need to see that kind > of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. OK. But imagine if........ > but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract what they need. That's what we do, because that is our only option........until we get a better viewer like Harry asked for! :-) Richard.
Message 7 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Richard, Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. Autodesk has been providing it for years and it has worked great. He doesn't want electronic paper which is what PDF and DWF were designed to be. DWF and PDF are published formats and created through the print process, they are not design formats. Sure Autodesk is going to add in 3D and smart objects that can display properties and such but all of this is going to take time and in reality it's only going to be used by maybe 20% of the user base that uses DWF. But keep in mind that the smarter you make the DWF or the PDF the easier it is for someone to reverse engineer the file right back into a DWG. So it get's to the point where you might as well just send them the DWG anyways. As for 3D DWF I haven't had a chance yet to fully look at the specs but I think it's mainly for solid modeling the ACIS objects and for 2D flat drawings there will still be no Z Coordinate. This is why Inventor is going to be the first program to support it because the DWF is not created through the standard print process. I also in no words said that Autodesk should make "make dumb tools for dumb people". What I said is: So for 80% of the people being able to view a dumb lightweight version of the dwg ("electronic paper") is all they need and hence the current publishing for DWF works. Autodesk so far had done exactly what they should. They have worked on improving the DWF format and making it better for the majority of the users. The 80% that need nothing more than a digital representation of what the drawing would look like if printed. The other 20% can wait for future tools, create their own, or use AutoCAD if they have to have an intelligent file that they can transmit to the client. As far as I know you can put all the intelligent data you want in a file format but legally none of that is going to stand up in court if it's not displayed on the viewable and printable drawing. Sure it makes nice bells and whistles and makes some people's jobs easier but most of the worlds greatest engineering wonders have still been built from paper drawings. Don't get me wrong, I have spent the last 2.5 years now working on nothing but PDF and DWF for our customers and there are huge savings by going digital. But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and print and not modify. Very few even care about digital markup because they know that for an engineering size drawing their client is likely going to print it out to look it over. But for every plot they don't have to send by overnight Fed Ex they save big bucks. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "Richard" wrote in message news:40f47d86_3@newsprd01... > Hi Don > > > Sounds to me like AutoCAD is needed with "read only" access to the files > themselves. > > I guess it depends on how you see ACAD I think we look at it as an "editor" > OTOH we see the DWF format as a way to see / read data produced by an > editor. > > I think you missed my point re layers & layouts. > What I meant was, that is just Symbol table data....An if Adesk are looking > at inc > Arch DT properties, why not simple attributes? > > > Those that need the actual design data in 3D would be > > using AutoCAD, or a vertical product. > > Again I think you missed the point I was intending. I'm suggesting that > Attributes type data > would take up less data space than 3D z coords on all objects. > > > > I deal with people across town and across the country that need to see > > plans, in the most expedient way necessary. With DWF & PDF I can provide > > that data in a format that they can just bring up and view or print if > they > > want without having to worry about print configuration files or be > confused > > by the multitude of colors. > > Absolutely DWF or PDF do this, infact PDF is more widely used / known IMHO > Even a PLT file will provide this basic functionality. > > > I think you are way off here. Lots of people don't necessarily need > attribute data, > > That wasn't my point. Rodney said "make dumb tools for dumb people" which I > hope > Adesk never agree with. > > Including Dwgprops or Attribute or xdata would be one way for Adesk to > differenciate DWF from PDF in the market place. > > > > With all my dealings if people need to see that kind > > of detail then it needs to be placed on the plan or referenced plans. > > OK. But imagine if........ > > > but it sound like you just need to send them a dwg and let them extract > what they need. > > That's what we do, because that is our only option........until we get a > better viewer like Harry asked for! :-) > > Richard. > > > >
Message 8 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

> But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have > a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and print > and not modify. Ahhhh they must be the same clients that send us the DWF's and PDF's for conversion back to DWG so they can work on them. :-) We also offer a scanning service for paper=>dwg conversions. FWIW We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to the source explaining that neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats".
Message 9 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included with the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. Cheers, -Shaan "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > Richard, > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer.
Message 10 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Shaan Yes was aware of that, but not what I'm (and I think Harry) where looking for. The point *I* have been trying to make is we don't want PDF relabled as DWF DWF could be so much more. It could be "different" and better so easily. Just (honestly) ask yourself what you say to someone who is using PDF..... First thing that comes to my mind, is "turning Layers on/off" and "support for layouts" Both a great use of CAD "Data" - and by "Data" I don't mean lines & circles, I mean the intelligent info that we all build into our files. Basically the property or symbol table info, the stuff that makes CAD , well CAD, rather than just paper (electronic or otherwise) So now imagine a DWF product that does more.....yea sure it measures distances with osnaps - great But "what if" you could pick on a wall and it reports it's length, the colour its painted and its height. Yes I know that the AEC boys (& Girls) are playing with this.....but "what if" something as simple as picking blocks could show (think tooltip if you like) the attributes on a block. eg move your mouse over a point and have the height show, or over a piece of furniture or bolt and have its manufaturer show as the designer documented it. Like Harry orig said, what is so hard about this? if Layer data can be embedded with the objects, why not attributes. I mean we had Hyperlinks.... And if Attribs work why not fields, xdata, xrecords. If DWF supported Layers, Layouts and "Intelligent CAD Data" then PDF wouldn't even be a consideration IMHO Right now DWF is an "also ran" in a electronic doc race which has a clear (if less suitable) leader. At least that is the view put to us by our clients, and we see as a reasonable point of view. However the way some here view DWF, I get the impression we might all be better of going back to emailing PLT's or posting paper. But some here noted there may be other vested interests at play.....ummmmm Anyhow great for Adesk to jump in. Thanks Shaan. "Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc." wrote in message news:40f540ab$1_2@newsprd01... > Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included with > the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. > > Cheers, > -Shaan > > "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message > news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > > Richard, > > > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real Data > > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. > >
Message 11 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I am confused by your last comment. How is DWG more secure then DWF? DWF is a password protected, non-editable, print ready format. The same is not true about DWG. Could you explain what type of security we would need to add to DWF so that you would say it is secure? I am not sure if you are aware of this but DWF files are created with precision that while good for printing, does not work for editing. DWG files on the other hand are designed for editing. I also wanted to point out that adding 3D to DWF did not change the size of a 2D DWF. The publishing app decides what type of data the DWF should contain. Ben Cochran Autodesk Both DWF and PDF have "Richard" wrote in message news:40f4b96c$1_2@newsprd01... > > But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have > > a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and > print > > and not modify. > > Ahhhh they must be the same clients that send us the DWF's and PDF's for > conversion > back to DWG so they can work on them. :-) > We also offer a scanning service for paper=>dwg conversions. > > FWIW We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to the > source explaining that > neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats". > > > >
Message 12 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

You bring up some very good points about intelligent data. The DWF format and the viewer support much of this today. As you know ADT has the ability to publish this data. If you have the time, you might want to check it out. Ben Cochran Autodesk "Richard" wrote in message news:40f54683_1@newsprd01... > Hi Shaan > Yes was aware of that, but not what I'm (and I think Harry) where > looking for. > The point *I* have been trying to make is we don't want PDF relabled as > DWF > DWF could be so much more. It could be "different" and better so easily. > > Just (honestly) ask yourself what you say to someone who is using > PDF..... > First thing that comes to my mind, is "turning Layers on/off" and > "support for layouts" > Both a great use of CAD "Data" - and by "Data" I don't mean lines & > circles, I mean the > intelligent info that we all build into our files. Basically the > property or symbol table info, the > stuff that makes CAD , well CAD, rather than just paper (electronic or > otherwise) > > So now imagine a DWF product that does more.....yea sure it measures > distances with osnaps - great > But "what if" you could pick on a wall and it reports it's length, the > colour its painted and its height. > Yes I know that the AEC boys (& Girls) are playing with this.....but > "what if" something as simple > as picking blocks could show (think tooltip if you like) the attributes > on a block. > eg move your mouse over a point and have the height show, or over a > piece of furniture or bolt > and have its manufaturer show as the designer documented it. > > Like Harry orig said, what is so hard about this? if Layer data can be > embedded with the objects, why not attributes. > I mean we had Hyperlinks.... And if Attribs work why not fields, > xdata, xrecords. > > If DWF supported Layers, Layouts and "Intelligent CAD Data" then PDF > wouldn't even be a consideration IMHO > Right now DWF is an "also ran" in a electronic doc race which has a > clear (if less suitable) leader. > At least that is the view put to us by our clients, and we see as a > reasonable point of view. > > However the way some here view DWF, I get the impression we might all be > better of going back to emailing PLT's or posting paper. > But some here noted there may be other vested interests at > play.....ummmmm > > Anyhow great for Adesk to jump in. Thanks Shaan. > > > > > "Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc." wrote in message > news:40f540ab$1_2@newsprd01... > > Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included > with > > the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. > > > > Cheers, > > -Shaan > > > > "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message > > news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > > > Richard, > > > > > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real > Data > > > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. > > > > > >
Message 13 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Ben, I thought that one of the benefits of the DWF is that the precision is there to take real world measurements and not just paper based measurements like the PDF. I've seen the demos for the ADT and it is cool with the data being transferred over but with everything that Harry was originally asking for I still say he might as well transmit the DWG. And Autodesk has been giving us the tools to view all the design data that he wants for years now. I come from the industrial equipment end of things originally and as well as DWF or PDF works for basic approval the clients are still going to require a dwg file for them to be able to drop into their plant layouts for their records. Our sales guys tried to swear that we couldn't give them a dwg but if you give them a DWF or PDF or even a Print it can easily be reverse engineered right back into a usable DWG anyways. And in the meantime the customers just kept getting made because they are buying a piece of equipment and then were forced to spend their time to redraw the stuff for their own use. I did it with manufacturers we bought equipment from. The guys who supplied us the dwg files were the guys I would buy from because it saved me time. Don't get me wrong, I can see some incredible useful scenarios for intelligent data in the DWF which is why I'm investing time in it. But Harry's original post was basically for all the information in the dwg. And people also forget that when it really comes down to design and sharing design data the native formats may be best. Publishing is totally different from design and for publishing DWF is great. Also there is no such thing as a secure file format. Give me a password protected DWF or PDF and I can probably remove the password and resave it without one. Give me a PDF with layers and I could give you a dwg with layers from it. Granted you're not going to roll it back into an ADT or MDT type of environment but your are going to get them into a fairly usable dwg. And as several customers have pointed out if you can view it or print it you can also send it overseas (or even here in the US) and have it manually created into a dwg for a small fee. It's nothing new. The old stone tablets have been copied to paper and then to digital and could now be engraved back on stone if one wanted. Interesting enough I have yet to hear of a storage media that outlasts the various first thing us humans wrote on. As we make things easier we also reduce the archival life span of our work. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "Ben Cochran" wrote in message news:40f554bf$1_3@newsprd01... > I am confused by your last comment. How is DWG more secure then DWF? DWF is > a password protected, non-editable, print ready format. The same is not true > about DWG. Could you explain what type of security we would need to add to > DWF so that you would say it is secure? > > I am not sure if you are aware of this but DWF files are created with > precision that while good for printing, does not work for editing. DWG files > on the other hand are designed for editing. > > I also wanted to point out that adding 3D to DWF did not change the size of > a 2D DWF. The publishing app decides what type of data the DWF should > contain. > > Ben Cochran > Autodesk > > Both DWF and PDF have > "Richard" wrote in message news:40f4b96c$1_2@newsprd01... > > > But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have > > > a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and > > print > > > and not modify. > > > > Ahhhh they must be the same clients that send us the DWF's and PDF's for > > conversion > > back to DWG so they can work on them. :-) > > We also offer a scanning service for paper=>dwg conversions. > > > > FWIW We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to > the > > source explaining that > > neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats". > > > > > > > > > >
Message 14 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

You are correct, DWF does have enough precision to make accurate measurements. The analogy to paper works well, you can measure from paper, but if you try to scan that paper back in and recreate the DWG you will encounter problems. From a DWF you can make more accurate measurements then you can from paper, but it does not have enough precision to get back to the original DWG. Autocad uses double precision data and DWF stores a 32-bit representation of the data. In Harry's case it sounds like the DWG might be what he needs. I was simply responding to some of the points Richard brought up. Particularly the part suggesting that DWF and PDF are not "secure formats" so a DWG should be used instead. This implies that a DWG is more secure then a DWF or PDF. Perhaps I am missing something, but that implication is simply wrong. The exciting thing about a published format is that the owners of the data can publish data tailored for there audience in a representation they can use. Some audiences require object data like fire ratings on doors or cost of a bolt, etc. Some audiences should not receive this type of intellectual property. The publisher has control of what is published and who they give the published data to. In other words, DWF can be used to protect the publisher's intellectual property while giving them the ability to share needed information. Ben "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message news:40f571be_3@newsprd01... > Ben, > > I thought that one of the benefits of the DWF is that the precision is there > to take real world measurements and not just paper based measurements like > the PDF. I've seen the demos for the ADT and it is cool with the data being > transferred over but with everything that Harry was originally asking for I > still say he might as well transmit the DWG. And Autodesk has been giving > us the tools to view all the design data that he wants for years now. > > I come from the industrial equipment end of things originally and as well as > DWF or PDF works for basic approval the clients are still going to require a > dwg file for them to be able to drop into their plant layouts for their > records. Our sales guys tried to swear that we couldn't give them a dwg but > if you give them a DWF or PDF or even a Print it can easily be reverse > engineered right back into a usable DWG anyways. And in the meantime the > customers just kept getting made because they are buying a piece of > equipment and then were forced to spend their time to redraw the stuff for > their own use. I did it with manufacturers we bought equipment from. The > guys who supplied us the dwg files were the guys I would buy from because it > saved me time. > > Don't get me wrong, I can see some incredible useful scenarios for > intelligent data in the DWF which is why I'm investing time in it. But > Harry's original post was basically for all the information in the dwg. And > people also forget that when it really comes down to design and sharing > design data the native formats may be best. Publishing is totally different > from design and for publishing DWF is great. > > Also there is no such thing as a secure file format. Give me a password > protected DWF or PDF and I can probably remove the password and resave it > without one. Give me a PDF with layers and I could give you a dwg with > layers from it. Granted you're not going to roll it back into an ADT or MDT > type of environment but your are going to get them into a fairly usable dwg. > And as several customers have pointed out if you can view it or print it you > can also send it overseas (or even here in the US) and have it manually > created into a dwg for a small fee. > > It's nothing new. The old stone tablets have been copied to paper and then > to digital and could now be engraved back on stone if one wanted. > Interesting enough I have yet to hear of a storage media that outlasts the > various first thing us humans wrote on. As we make things easier we also > reduce the archival life span of our work. > -- > Rodney McManamy > President > CADzation > ------------------------- > rmcmanamy@cadzation.com > ------------------------- > 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 > McHenry, IL 60050 > www.cadzation.com > Providing Industrial Strength > PDF & DWF Solutions to the > Global CAD Marketplace. > > "Ben Cochran" wrote in message > news:40f554bf$1_3@newsprd01... > > I am confused by your last comment. How is DWG more secure then DWF? DWF > is > > a password protected, non-editable, print ready format. The same is not > true > > about DWG. Could you explain what type of security we would need to add to > > DWF so that you would say it is secure? > > > > I am not sure if you are aware of this but DWF files are created with > > precision that while good for printing, does not work for editing. DWG > files > > on the other hand are designed for editing. > > > > I also wanted to point out that adding 3D to DWF did not change the size > of > > a 2D DWF. The publishing app decides what type of data the DWF should > > contain. > > > > Ben Cochran > > Autodesk > > > > Both DWF and PDF have > > "Richard" wrote in message > news:40f4b96c$1_2@newsprd01... > > > > But I can tell you that 95% of the people I talk with want to have > > > > a format that they can send to the client that the client can view and > > > print > > > > and not modify. > > > > > > Ahhhh they must be the same clients that send us the DWF's and PDF's for > > > conversion > > > back to DWG so they can work on them. :-) > > > We also offer a scanning service for paper=>dwg conversions. > > > > > > FWIW We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to > > the > > > source explaining that > > > neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Message 15 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Ben > This implies that a DWG is more secure then a DWF or PDF. Perhaps I > am missing something, but that implication is simply wrong. Not sure what I wrote that lead you to your conclusions, but I never said DWG was more sercure in any way. I don't think DWF, PDF or DWG are secure at all and I never stated they where. And I never said use DWG instead of DWF I meerly said we get a lot of requests to convert DWF back to DWF (acurate or not) so people can edit the info. Typically these people have received the DWF's when they "should" have been sent DWG. But the source (incorrectly) thought they would "secure their data". by sending DWF > The exciting thing about a published format is that the owners of the data > can publish data tailored for there audience in a representation they can > use. Some audiences require object data like fire ratings on doors or cost > of a bolt, etc. Some audiences should not receive this type of intellectual > property. The publisher has control of what is published and who they give > the published data to. In other words, DWF can be used to protect the > publisher's intellectual property while giving them the ability to share > needed information. Great I think that is what we are looking for. I just can't seem to see it in the menus of any Adesk products? Is there an extra menu I need to load up? 🙂
Message 16 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

> but with everything that Harry was originally asking for I > still say he might as well transmit the DWG. I think you read more into it that I did. > Don't get me wrong, I can see some incredible useful scenarios for > intelligent data in the DWF which is why I'm investing time in it. OK, Great to see your change of heart! >But Harry's original post was basically for all the information in the dwg. Where did you read that? All I read was he want (an I want) to be able to attach some info to lines / circles / arcs & blocks, So I can take a light weight datafile (read DWF) on my palm or at least notebook, and be able to pick on my "electronic graphical database" and extract the name of the pump manufacturer, or the paint colour code for the window frame! > Also there is no such thing as a secure file format. Give me a password > protected DWF or PDF and I can probably remove the password and resave it > without one. Great, we agree on this also, I agree that nothing (other than not sending anything). is secure. (Actually "not sending" might not be secure either if someone looks over your shoulder!) What I've been saying is simple. Not complicated by security issues or conversion processes of format wars or any other tangents. All I've been saying is PLT & PDF already gives us "electronic paper", I want to see DWF as something that gives a bit more. And by "more" I mean "CAD info", the "intelligence" that the designer put into the file in the first place, the stuff that Adesk do, that Adobe don't or can't.. Sort of why I use ACAD rather than MSPaint or Corel! Ie DWF could be "unique" rather than "also does". Like Harry said, who really cares if its, DWG, DWF,DXF or even DGN. Just portable (read small & lightweight), useful CAD information. Having said that, Ben has implied that all that I want is already available, I just haven't found it on a menu yet! :-) I'll keep looking!. 8-)
Message 17 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Hi Ben, When we first saw the ADT abilities we looked good and hard at it, so we could try & replicate & include it in basic ACAD. We have not had a great deal of sucess at it however. Bottom line is ADT gave us a taste of something we have wanted for a long time. (BTW before ADT we had tried to implement it via "hyperlinks" with some limited success) But the ADT experience simply reinforces that Question "how hard can it be to include attributes or xdata or fields info in a DWF?" We don't really care if the info shows in the DWF properties box or as a tooltip. We don't really care if the mouse moves over the objects, or if we need to pick on them and have a dialog pop up. We just want "intelligent" publishing. I can almost see the marketing blurb ..... "You developed an intelligent design document , now use OUR data publishing tools to publish Intelligent and REALLY usable documents, Why use theirs & publish just basic information, and loose all your intelligence.?" ummm ...bit harsh maybe ;-) DWFit => Data With Free InTelligence $0.02 (actually I think I'm up to about $2.02 already!.) "Ben Cochran" wrote in message news:40f557e9$1_2@newsprd01... > You bring up some very good points about intelligent data. The DWF format > and the viewer support much of this today. As you know ADT has the ability > to publish this data. If you have the time, you might want to check it out. > > Ben Cochran > Autodesk > > "Richard" wrote in message news:40f54683_1@newsprd01... > > Hi Shaan > > Yes was aware of that, but not what I'm (and I think Harry) where > > looking for. > > The point *I* have been trying to make is we don't want PDF relabled > as > > DWF > > DWF could be so much more. It could be "different" and better so > easily. > > > > Just (honestly) ask yourself what you say to someone who is using > > PDF..... > > First thing that comes to my mind, is "turning Layers on/off" and > > "support for layouts" > > Both a great use of CAD "Data" - and by "Data" I don't mean lines & > > circles, I mean the > > intelligent info that we all build into our files. Basically the > > property or symbol table info, the > > stuff that makes CAD , well CAD, rather than just paper (electronic or > > otherwise) > > > > So now imagine a DWF product that does more.....yea sure it measures > > distances with osnaps - great > > But "what if" you could pick on a wall and it reports it's length, the > > colour its painted and its height. > > Yes I know that the AEC boys (& Girls) are playing with this.....but > > "what if" something as simple > > as picking blocks could show (think tooltip if you like) the > attributes > > on a block. > > eg move your mouse over a point and have the height show, or over a > > piece of furniture or bolt > > and have its manufaturer show as the designer documented it. > > > > Like Harry orig said, what is so hard about this? if Layer data can be > > embedded with the objects, why not attributes. > > I mean we had Hyperlinks.... And if Attribs work why not fields, > > xdata, xrecords. > > > > If DWF supported Layers, Layouts and "Intelligent CAD Data" then PDF > > wouldn't even be a consideration IMHO > > Right now DWF is an "also ran" in a electronic doc race which has a > > clear (if less suitable) leader. > > At least that is the view put to us by our clients, and we see as a > > reasonable point of view. > > > > However the way some here view DWF, I get the impression we might all > be > > better of going back to emailing PLT's or posting paper. > > But some here noted there may be other vested interests at > > play.....ummmmm > > > > Anyhow great for Adesk to jump in. Thanks Shaan. > > > > > > > > > > "Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc." wrote in > message > > news:40f540ab$1_2@newsprd01... > > > Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer included > > with > > > the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > -Shaan > > > > > > "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in message > > > news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > > > > Richard, > > > > > > > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The real > > Data > > > > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. > > > > > > > > > > > >
Message 18 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Right now the latest version of ADT (and I think map) are all that are publishing some intellignet data from what I know. As I said it's not an easy task trying to come up with a general way for someone to pick and choose what data they want added from what objects into the DWF but the API is open so once can make a custom solution for their needs. I'm sure the general solution is going to come in future versions of AutoCAD but again they are pleasing the majority of users who don't need the intelligent data and the rest of us either have to do it on our own now or have to wait for future releases. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "Richard" wrote in message news:40f5d390$1_3@newsprd01... > > but with everything that Harry was originally asking for I > > still say he might as well transmit the DWG. > > I think you read more into it that I did. > > > Don't get me wrong, I can see some incredible useful scenarios for > > intelligent data in the DWF which is why I'm investing time in it. > > OK, Great to see your change of heart! > > >But Harry's original post was basically for all the information in the dwg. > > Where did you read that? All I read was he want (an I want) to be able to > attach some info > to lines / circles / arcs & blocks, So I can take a light weight datafile > (read DWF) > on my palm or at least notebook, and be able to pick on my "electronic > graphical database" > and extract the name of the pump manufacturer, or the paint colour code for > the window frame! > > > Also there is no such thing as a secure file format. Give me a password > > protected DWF or PDF and I can probably remove the password and resave it > > without one. > > Great, we agree on this also, I agree that nothing (other than not sending > anything). > is secure. (Actually "not sending" might not be secure either if someone > looks over your shoulder!) > > What I've been saying is simple. Not complicated by security issues or > conversion processes > of format wars or any other tangents. All I've been saying is PLT & PDF > already gives > us "electronic paper", I want to see DWF as something that gives a bit > more. > And by "more" I mean "CAD info", the "intelligence" that the designer put > into the > file in the first place, the stuff that Adesk do, that Adobe don't or > can't.. > Sort of why I use ACAD rather than MSPaint or Corel! > Ie DWF could be "unique" rather than "also does". > Like Harry said, who really cares if its, DWG, DWF,DXF or even DGN. > Just portable (read small & lightweight), useful CAD information. > > Having said that, Ben has implied that all that I want is already available, > I just haven't found it on a menu yet! :-) > I'll keep looking!. 8-) > > >
Message 19 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

All in good time. See my earlier post. We'll be working on this also in the upcoming months but I'll tell you from a developer that when it comes to commercial software nothing is easy. For Autodesk it's going to have to work on 6 different operating systems and probably be in at least 7 different languages and also be easy enough for the average person to setup (since apparently people don't like to read online help manuals). I personally think Autodesk has taken the correct path in improving the basic viewing and adding the 3D capability first before using resources to come up with a general solution for everyone to add intelligence. The intelligence is there for the people using the more intelligent programs like ADT but that's because the data that is being extracted is much more defined than in generic AutoCAD. After all for the intelligent portion to work properly the basics have to be done first and have to be solid. Maybe I can use your marketing blurb for our products. Autodesk is very much relying on companies like ours to help push the DWF by tackling the other 20% that people need. If they wanted to keep it all to themselves they never would have published the full API. We run circles around what Adobe can do with PDF from AutoCAD and we hope to do it with DWF also. But we luckily don't have to worry about pleasing millions of customers (hopefully in the future our installed base reaches that) or even going through planning and approval processes to add in features. If I want it it goes in once we get the time to do it. Check out our AcroPlot Pro tomorrow and we'll have the DWF enabled version that can add intelligent bookmarks based on your titleblock attributtes to the DWF just like we've been doing for years to the PDF. Contact me in about a month and maybe we'll be caught up enough to start looking at adding the intelligent data to the DWF also and I would be glad to listen to how you think it should work. But it' summertime and I'm only working 60 hours a week now so it may be closer to 6-8 weeks before we can start on it. -- Rodney McManamy President CADzation ------------------------- rmcmanamy@cadzation.com ------------------------- 518 South Route 31 Suite 200 McHenry, IL 60050 www.cadzation.com Providing Industrial Strength PDF & DWF Solutions to the Global CAD Marketplace. "Richard" wrote in message news:40f5db60$1_2@newsprd01... > Hi Ben, > When we first saw the ADT abilities we looked good and hard at it, so > we could > try & replicate & include it in basic ACAD. > We have not had a great deal of sucess at it however. > > Bottom line is ADT gave us a taste of something we have wanted for a > long time. > (BTW before ADT we had tried to implement it via "hyperlinks" with some > limited success) > But the ADT experience simply reinforces that Question "how hard can it > be to include > attributes or xdata or fields info in a DWF?" > We don't really care if the info shows in the DWF properties box or as a > tooltip. > We don't really care if the mouse moves over the objects, or if we need > to pick on them and have a dialog pop up. > We just want "intelligent" publishing. > > I can almost see the marketing blurb ..... > "You developed an intelligent design document , now use OUR data > publishing tools to publish Intelligent and REALLY usable > documents, Why use theirs & publish just basic information, and loose > all your intelligence.?" ummm ...bit harsh maybe ;-) > > DWFit => Data With Free InTelligence > > $0.02 > (actually I think I'm up to about $2.02 already!.) > > > > > "Ben Cochran" wrote in message > news:40f557e9$1_2@newsprd01... > > You bring up some very good points about intelligent data. The DWF format > > and the viewer support much of this today. As you know ADT has the ability > > to publish this data. If you have the time, you might want to check it > out. > > > > Ben Cochran > > Autodesk > > > > "Richard" wrote in message news:40f54683_1@newsprd01... > > > Hi Shaan > > > Yes was aware of that, but not what I'm (and I think Harry) where > > > looking for. > > > The point *I* have been trying to make is we don't want PDF relabled > > as > > > DWF > > > DWF could be so much more. It could be "different" and better so > > easily. > > > > > > Just (honestly) ask yourself what you say to someone who is using > > > PDF..... > > > First thing that comes to my mind, is "turning Layers on/off" and > > > "support for layouts" > > > Both a great use of CAD "Data" - and by "Data" I don't mean lines & > > > circles, I mean the > > > intelligent info that we all build into our files. Basically the > > > property or symbol table info, the > > > stuff that makes CAD , well CAD, rather than just paper (electronic or > > > otherwise) > > > > > > So now imagine a DWF product that does more.....yea sure it measures > > > distances with osnaps - great > > > But "what if" you could pick on a wall and it reports it's length, > the > > > colour its painted and its height. > > > Yes I know that the AEC boys (& Girls) are playing with this.....but > > > "what if" something as simple > > > as picking blocks could show (think tooltip if you like) the > > attributes > > > on a block. > > > eg move your mouse over a point and have the height show, or over a > > > piece of furniture or bolt > > > and have its manufaturer show as the designer documented it. > > > > > > Like Harry orig said, what is so hard about this? if Layer data can > be > > > embedded with the objects, why not attributes. > > > I mean we had Hyperlinks.... And if Attribs work why not fields, > > > xdata, xrecords. > > > > > > If DWF supported Layers, Layouts and "Intelligent CAD Data" then PDF > > > wouldn't even be a consideration IMHO > > > Right now DWF is an "also ran" in a electronic doc race which has a > > > clear (if less suitable) leader. > > > At least that is the view put to us by our clients, and we see as a > > > reasonable point of view. > > > > > > However the way some here view DWF, I get the impression we might > all > > be > > > better of going back to emailing PLT's or posting paper. > > > But some here noted there may be other vested interests at > > > play.....ummmmm > > > > > > Anyhow great for Adesk to jump in. Thanks Shaan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Shaan Hurley, Autodesk, Inc." wrote in > > message > > > news:40f540ab$1_2@newsprd01... > > > > Just adding to the discussion. There is a DWG read-only viewer > included > > > with > > > > the Autodesk DWF Composer Product. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > -Shaan > > > > > > > > "Rodney McManamy - CADzation" wrote in > message > > > > news:40f4abc3$1_1@newsprd01... > > > > > Richard, > > > > > > > > > > Harry's original post is that he want a real "DATA" viewer. The > real > > > Data > > > > > viewer is AutoCAD or a native DWG file viewer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Message 20 of 26
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I am sorry if I misinterpreted the marketing statement: "We do advise the client to send a copy of the rebuilt dwg's back to the source explaining that neither DWF nor PDF are "secure formats"." The word security applies to a very wide range of problems and solutions, from password protection to digital signatures to digital rights management. The fact is that DWF and PDF protect your intellectual property better then DWG. That being said what kind of security are you looking for? Ben "Richard" wrote in message news:40f5cea2$1_2@newsprd01... > Hi Ben > > > This implies that a DWG is more secure then a DWF or PDF. Perhaps I > > am missing something, but that implication is simply wrong. > > Not sure what I wrote that lead you to your conclusions, > but I never said DWG was more sercure in any way. > I don't think DWF, PDF or DWG are secure at all and I never stated they > where. > > And I never said use DWG instead of DWF > I meerly said we get a lot of requests to convert DWF back to DWF > (acurate or not) > so people can edit the info. Typically these people have received the > DWF's when they > "should" have been sent DWG. But the source (incorrectly) thought they > would "secure their data". > by sending DWF > > > The exciting thing about a published format is that the owners of the data > > can publish data tailored for there audience in a representation they can > > use. Some audiences require object data like fire ratings on doors or cost > > of a bolt, etc. Some audiences should not receive this type of > intellectual > > property. The publisher has control of what is published and who they give > > the published data to. In other words, DWF can be used to protect the > > publisher's intellectual property while giving them the ability to share > > needed information. > > Great I think that is what we are looking for. > I just can't seem to see it in the menus of any Adesk products? > Is there an extra menu I need to load up? :-) > > > >

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