CAD Managers

Reply
*PF
Message 41 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-24-2003 03:10 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
My problem with the Parents is they Raised them with that attitude - and
probably had innumerable chances to rectify it!


> "cad user" wrote in message
> news:BEFAB3618806FAE4546A4C6A6637319F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > I did not slander you so what's your problem? If they are cheating they
> > don't care about the class. You should spend your efforts on the ones
> that
> > are very interested and having trouble. You are giving attention to the
> > wrong students. Advise their parents and let them take care of it.
*PF
Message 42 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-24-2003 03:22 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Jason -
Time, it seems, has taught you (at least) that learning is full of bruises-
and your story sounds wholly inequitable- but I'd point out that a teacher
must do all possible to expose work that is not original ... to the best
of their abilities.

Could you offer us a way: How would you have caught the person who stole
your work? If only your instructor had a better way...


Jason Hickey wrote in message
news:B68C9DA44DE8CAF0DC67C7560B613342@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Jeff,
>
> I've been in your described situation, only from the student's point.
> Here's my story:
....
> He said that I had cheated, he was very upset, and that the only way I
could
> make up for it was to have a hand drawing of the assembly in his hands by
> noon the next day. He said that three of us had cheated, and not to try
to
> go to the dean about it, because he would have us expelled. I was upset,
> needless to say, but knew that I had to do what he wanted to keep from
> getting an "F" in the class. I stayed up, literally, all night working
on
> it, missed work the next day, and finally finished. .... When I got to
> his office, he took it and apologized to me. Seems like this guy in the
> class (a real slacker) had seen me working on mine and copied my floppy
when
> I wasn't looking (we were back and forth to the plotter). He re-named
the
> files, plotted them out, and turned them in as his own work. He finally
> confessed when put under pressure. I was told that the assembly drawing
> would count for extra credit, but it ended up not counting for anything (I
> really wanted that one back, I was VERY proud of it.). I was not a happy
> camper for days, but finally put it behind me.
>
> I guess what I'm saying is, please make sure that the person you accuse is
> really guilty. That's been well over 10 years ago, and I'm still not
quite
> over it.
>
>
> --
> Jason Hickey
>
> Goodwyn, Mills, and Cawood, Inc.
> 1102 South 20th Street
> Birmingham, Alabama, 35205
> (205) 879-4462
> www.gmcnetwork.com
> (Take me out to reply)
>
>
> "The Ozone layer or cheese in a spray can....don't make me choose."
>
>
>
>
*Marchetto, Eugene
Message 43 of 54 (95 Views)

Re: Your Cheatin Heart

04-24-2003 08:29 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Jeff,
For future classes, you can easly program a template file that has VBA code
embedded into it. The code can easily attatch xdata to each entitiy that is
created and modified automatically. The xdata can contain information about
the login name of the user, machine name and time & date for each event of
each entity. By having the program embedded in your supplied template, you
would not have to have a distributed file that would cause suspision.

I think the suggestion of Entity handle names will work if the exact drawing
was copied and used from the start. If entities were wblocked or copied and
pasted out, the handles would change.

Good Luck!

Dreamcad
Gene Marchetto
973-728-3928
dreamcad@optonline.net




"Jeff Laurich" wrote in message
news:2BC678FD7E5B14FBAFB8222EFCA2706F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> To All:
> I am an instructor at a Technical College teaching beginning level AutoCAD
> and I have recently discovered that 2 of my students are "sharing" their
> assigned work. In other words, they are turning in the same drawings as
> their own.
>
> I am 99% sure that they are cheating but need to be 100%. When I use the
> TIME command in AutoCAD, it tells me that both drawings were created at
the
> exact same 1/100 of a second. That's pretty solid evidence, I think,
except
> for the fact that they could have started with the same template or
drawing
> file. I also checked a few random objects in the drawings and the handles
> are identical. That seems to be the deciding clue for me that they are
> indeed using the same drawing.
>
> Does anybody else have any other ideas on how I can be sure about this?
Are
> handles as random as I think they are?
> Thanks for your time,
> Jeff
>
>
*S, Tim
Message 44 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-24-2003 10:22 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Craig, also be careful not to get the idea that all of your students come
from one typical mold. You will run into students who are strangely
intelligent and will come up with very ingenius ways to get a job done. You
must take the time to physically look at what the student has done, even if
this means sitting down with every student, and saying, "Ok, explain how you
approached this." This is where the learning takes place, not at the monkey
see monkey do level. There is never a definite "have to" in doing cad work
and some people, especially kids can come up with some really cool ideas on
how to approach something. If you want to know if they cheated ask a few
questions, the truth will come out. One simple question like "What layer did
you use for the camshaft?" Can tell you a lot about whether they are the
actual creator or not.
Tim
"Craig Black" wrote in message
news:F849E923FD5646E32D69B495966C5F46@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Marshall,
> I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the number
> of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check" drawing,
5%
> off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant drawings)...
>
> Craig Black
> ATC Manager
> Fox Valley Technical College
>
> "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then they
> are
> > cheating no one but themselves.
> >
> > Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
> > instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it
> took
> > to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of
AutoCAD
> > than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the value
of
> > "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
> drawing
> > files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of
drawings.
> >
> >
>
>
*Hickey, Jason
Message 45 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-24-2003 11:37 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
To be truthful, I don't have a better way to catch the person that cheated.
My main point is that he a) jumped to conclusions quickly, before he had all
the facts and b) was extremely nasty about it. As we all know in the
professional world, there's a professional way and an unprofessional way to
voice displeasure. His way was akin to a kindergarten tantrum.



--
Jason Hickey

Goodwyn, Mills, and Cawood, Inc.
1102 South 20th Street
Birmingham, Alabama, 35205
(205) 879-4462
www.gmcnetwork.com
(Take me out to reply)


"The Ozone layer or cheese in a spray can....don't make me choose."
*P., Danny
Message 46 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-24-2003 11:50 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Jeff/Allen,

You've hit the nail on the head here. The two students, and let's assume
they're working independently, would have had to mirror EVERY command
exactly as the other had done, to the letter in order for the handles to be
the same. If one of them added one single entity that the other didn't,
whether a point, a line, a layer, anything, then every handle from that
point on would be different for the two drawings. If you observe that the
handles of the last object added were the same, then there is no way
(reasonably) they they are unique drawings. You can type this in on the
command line to check "(entget (entlast))" to return the handles of the last
entity. If they're the same, you've got cheaters.

-Danny Polkinhorn
Perkins & Will
Atlanta

"Allen Jessup" wrote in message
news:76566E2E5F190AC6DDF06DE3972A1ADF@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I think you have enough info from other answers to determine the DWG's are
> identical. Just to answer one part of your question. Handles are not
random.
> They are hexadecimal numbers assigned in ascending order. If your two
> drawing were supposedly developed independently and not started from a
> common template. The chances of to objects having identical properties,
> including the handles, are extremely remote. Even if they inserted the
same
> standard blocks they shouldn't have the same handles. Handles are so
> sacrosanct that even in the days when there was a "Destroy Handles"
command
> you had to enter strange confirmations like "UNHANDLE THAT DATABASE" to
get
> the program to complete the command. Now there is no longer even that
> option.
> Just couldn't resist the little history lesson.
>
> Allen
> "Jeff Laurich" wrote in message
> news:2BC678FD7E5B14FBAFB8222EFCA2706F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > To All:
> > I am an instructor at a Technical College teaching beginning level
AutoCAD
> > and I have recently discovered that 2 of my students are "sharing" their
> > assigned work. In other words, they are turning in the same drawings as
> > their own.
> >
> > I am 99% sure that they are cheating but need to be 100%. When I use
the
> > TIME command in AutoCAD, it tells me that both drawings were created at
> the
> > exact same 1/100 of a second. That's pretty solid evidence, I think,
> except
> > for the fact that they could have started with the same template or
> drawing
> > file. I also checked a few random objects in the drawings and the
handles
> > are identical. That seems to be the deciding clue for me that they are
> > indeed using the same drawing.
> >
> > Does anybody else have any other ideas on how I can be sure about this?
> Are
> > handles as random as I think they are?
> > Thanks for your time,
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>
*PF
Message 47 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-25-2003 03:10 AM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
I agree- and my initial response is to line them up against the wall with
blndfolds and.... (G)
This does require a bit of creativity and thought!

Jason Hickey wrote in message
news:122FA1676092B893C7409259F5BEDA3A@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> To be truthful, I don't have a better way to catch the person that
cheated.
> My main point is that he a) jumped to conclusions quickly, before he had
all
> the facts and b) was extremely nasty about it. As we all know in the
> professional world, there's a professional way and an unprofessional way
to
> voice displeasure. His way was akin to a kindergarten tantrum.
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Hickey
>
> Goodwyn, Mills, and Cawood, Inc.
> 1102 South 20th Street
> Birmingham, Alabama, 35205
> (205) 879-4462
> www.gmcnetwork.com
> (Take me out to reply)
>
>
> "The Ozone layer or cheese in a spray can....don't make me choose."
>
>
*S, Tim
Message 48 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-25-2003 03:10 AM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
You could also get in front of the class and say "What we have here, is a
failure to communicate." Then put the one you think is guilty into a small
box out in the hot sun. It straightened Paul Newman's smart alecky butt
right out!
Tim

"PF" wrote in message
news:4AC66E1A2C2C253F1E6F790BEFC58FB3@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I agree- and my initial response is to line them up against the wall with
> blndfolds and.... (G)
> This does require a bit of creativity and thought!
>
> Jason Hickey wrote in message
> news:122FA1676092B893C7409259F5BEDA3A@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > To be truthful, I don't have a better way to catch the person that
> cheated.
> > My main point is that he a) jumped to conclusions quickly, before he had
> all
> > the facts and b) was extremely nasty about it. As we all know in the
> > professional world, there's a professional way and an unprofessional way
> to
> > voice displeasure. His way was akin to a kindergarten tantrum.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jason Hickey
> >
> > Goodwyn, Mills, and Cawood, Inc.
> > 1102 South 20th Street
> > Birmingham, Alabama, 35205
> > (205) 879-4462
> > www.gmcnetwork.com
> > (Take me out to reply)
> >
> >
> > "The Ozone layer or cheese in a spray can....don't make me choose."
> >
> >
>
>
*Black, Craig
Message 49 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-27-2003 08:07 AM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Thanks, everyone for your concerns in the fairness of my grading methods.
(and I am not being facetious, I mean it!)

I have been doing this for about 13 years now, so I am quite satisfied with
my methods and the results they produce. The class is very entry level and
I only do this "entity count" deal on the final exam. The students are told
to reproduce a simple "gasket" type drawing - and they are told to reproduce
it EXACTLY as shown. When I am checking the drawings, I issue the SELECT
command and merely window the drawing area and examine the entity count. If
its off, I start looking for overlapping entities and two part lines... that
sort of thing. I don not take 5% off for a bad count - and not tell them
where they went wrong - that wouldn't be right. The students are told
during the course that it is very important when working out in industry
that they should be able to know what to expect when they have to modify
someone else's drawing or if someone else has to edit theirs - that person
should know what to expect. So they are very forewarned as to what I am
looking for... But thanks for keeping an eye on me and making sure I am
doing things right! :smileywink:

Craig

"Tim S" wrote in message
news:084C424552F58B8E38E3EC426E7C5C99@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Craig, also be careful not to get the idea that all of your students come
> from one typical mold. You will run into students who are strangely
> intelligent and will come up with very ingenius ways to get a job done.
You
> must take the time to physically look at what the student has done, even
if
> this means sitting down with every student, and saying, "Ok, explain how
you
> approached this." This is where the learning takes place, not at the
monkey
> see monkey do level. There is never a definite "have to" in doing cad work
> and some people, especially kids can come up with some really cool ideas
on
> how to approach something. If you want to know if they cheated ask a few
> questions, the truth will come out. One simple question like "What layer
did
> you use for the camshaft?" Can tell you a lot about whether they are the
> actual creator or not.
> Tim
> "Craig Black" wrote in message
> news:F849E923FD5646E32D69B495966C5F46@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Marshall,
> > I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the
number
> > of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check" drawing,
> 5%
> > off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant
drawings)...
> >
> > Craig Black
> > ATC Manager
> > Fox Valley Technical College
> >
> > "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> > news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then
they
> > are
> > > cheating no one but themselves.
> > >
> > > Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
> > > instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it
> > took
> > > to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of
> AutoCAD
> > > than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the
value
> of
> > > "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
> > drawing
> > > files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of
> drawings.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
*jemery0630
Message 50 of 54 (95 Views)

Re:

04-27-2003 09:01 PM in reply to: *Laurich, Jeff
Not critizing your grading policy. Your the teacher. I am just saying that
there are more than one way to draw a square (4 lines, 1 polyline or 1
rectangle, to name a few). I am just asking how you maintain an enviornment
which tries to yield the correct # of entities, so that there is a fair
grading foundation. Do you tell your students not to use plines or
rectangles and to just use lines? I'm asking just ro gain knowledge from
someone with a little bit more teaching experience. To tell the students to
just use lines would limit there use of the software and furthermore limit
there knowledge of it as well. Please take these comments half-heartedly.
I'm only looking to better my teaching skills. Thanks


"Craig Black" wrote in message
news:smileyvery-happy:E65149537D997B351AAC1C774C20C2E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Thanks, everyone for your concerns in the fairness of my grading methods.
> (and I am not being facetious, I mean it!)
>
> I have been doing this for about 13 years now, so I am quite satisfied
with
> my methods and the results they produce. The class is very entry level
and
> I only do this "entity count" deal on the final exam. The students are
told
> to reproduce a simple "gasket" type drawing - and they are told to
reproduce
> it EXACTLY as shown. When I am checking the drawings, I issue the SELECT
> command and merely window the drawing area and examine the entity count.
If
> its off, I start looking for overlapping entities and two part lines...
that
> sort of thing. I don not take 5% off for a bad count - and not tell them
> where they went wrong - that wouldn't be right. The students are told
> during the course that it is very important when working out in industry
> that they should be able to know what to expect when they have to modify
> someone else's drawing or if someone else has to edit theirs - that person
> should know what to expect. So they are very forewarned as to what I am
> looking for... But thanks for keeping an eye on me and making sure I am
> doing things right! :smileywink:
>
> Craig
>
> "Tim S" wrote in message
> news:084C424552F58B8E38E3EC426E7C5C99@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Craig, also be careful not to get the idea that all of your students
come
> > from one typical mold. You will run into students who are strangely
> > intelligent and will come up with very ingenius ways to get a job done.
> You
> > must take the time to physically look at what the student has done, even
> if
> > this means sitting down with every student, and saying, "Ok, explain how
> you
> > approached this." This is where the learning takes place, not at the
> monkey
> > see monkey do level. There is never a definite "have to" in doing cad
work
> > and some people, especially kids can come up with some really cool ideas
> on
> > how to approach something. If you want to know if they cheated ask a few
> > questions, the truth will come out. One simple question like "What layer
> did
> > you use for the camshaft?" Can tell you a lot about whether they are the
> > actual creator or not.
> > Tim
> > "Craig Black" wrote in message
> > news:F849E923FD5646E32D69B495966C5F46@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > Marshall,
> > > I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the
> number
> > > of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check"
drawing,
> > 5%
> > > off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant
> drawings)...
> > >
> > > Craig Black
> > > ATC Manager
> > > Fox Valley Technical College
> > >
> > > "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> > > news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > > If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then
> they
> > > are
> > > > cheating no one but themselves.
> > > >
> > > > Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that
the
> > > > instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory
it
> > > took
> > > > to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of
> > AutoCAD
> > > > than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the
> value
> > of
> > > > "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
> > > drawing
> > > > files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of
> > drawings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Announcements
Manufacturing CAD & IT Manager Resource
Additional information for installing, licensing & deploying Inventor, the Product Design Suites and Factory Design Suites.
Need installation help?

Start with some of our most frequented solutions or visit the Installation and Licensing Forum to get help installing your software.