Your Cheatin Heart

[Anonymous]

To All:
I am an instructor at a Technical College teaching beginning level AutoCAD
and I have recently discovered that 2 of my students are "sharing" their
assigned work. In other words, they are turning in the same drawings as
their own.

I am 99% sure that they are cheating but need to be 100%. When I use the
TIME command in AutoCAD, it tells me that both drawings were created at the
exact same 1/100 of a second. That's pretty solid evidence, I think, except
for the fact that they could have started with the same template or drawing
file. I also checked a few random objects in the drawings and the handles
are identical. That seems to be the deciding clue for me that they are
indeed using the same drawing.

Does anybody else have any other ideas on how I can be sure about this? Are
handles as random as I think they are?
Thanks for your time,
Jeff

[Anonymous]

You can also LIST objects and check their HANDLE...
if multiple objects all have the same handles in two separate files than the file
is identical.

*******************************************************
Please, DO NOT send technical requests to me via private e-mail
*******************************************************

Tracy W. Lincoln, Assistant Moderator
Autodesk Discussion Groups Forum Moderator Program

[Anonymous]

not a good test- just open the drawing and go to
bed!

style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">

Jeff Laurich <
href="mailto:laurich@fvtc.edu">laurich@fvtc.edu> wrote in message
href="news:74F4A578DE1DD115163A4B12C260DC89@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:74F4A578DE1DD115163A4B12C26......

Thanks for the advice.  I think that the
TIME command gives me a pretty good indication who copied from whom. 
Total Editing Time is different in each drawing.  The copied drawing is
going to have a longer editing time.  But that is not 100%
either.

style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">

"c.prettyman" <
href="mailto:c.prettyman@ramsa.com">c.prettyman@ramsa.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f15b96d.3@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f15b96d.3@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

But,
you still have to find a way to answer the question of who was cheating -
both, or just one. If Student A copied Student B's work, with Student B's
knowledge, youcan probably flunk them both. If, however, Student A copied
Student B's work secretly, Student B should get a slap on the wrist for poor
security procedures, but that might be it.

If I were you, I'd go talk to your supervisor. The school may have
disciplinary actions to take beyond a simple failing grade - and they may
also have a process that tehy want to use to protect themselves from
lawsuits if one or both of the students you are about to flunk decides that
they have been treated unfairly.

[Anonymous]

that only encourages them! - Jeff has a point - and a problem... and I
encourage him to "try" to at least illustrate to his students they will be
under greater scrutiny in the future.


cad user wrote in message
news:34EBC26F2214C8483A2B72202161B6E1@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Leave them alone.

[Anonymous]

PF,
Exactly. I am training these people to function in the workplace and part
of that includes instilling a bit of ethics into them. I know that in these
days of Enron, the end result seems to be the only thing that matters. How
you get there doesn't play into the equation. Hopefully, my students will
go to work with a better conscience than caduser.

"PF" wrote in message
news:5350C71E75CCB5AC6C7D58E2CF165B84@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> that only encourages them! - Jeff has a point - and a problem... and I
> encourage him to "try" to at least illustrate to his students they will be
> under greater scrutiny in the future.
>
>
> cad user wrote in message
> news:34EBC26F2214C8483A2B72202161B6E1@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Leave them alone.
>
>
>

[Jon_Kirkham]

You might also explore the possibility that both students lifted the detail from another source. I'm a community college student myself, and it is not unprecendented for students to "borrow" details not from classmates, as well as from people who have previously taken the class.

[Anonymous]

I did not slander you so what's your problem? If they are cheating they
don't care about the class. You should spend your efforts on the ones that
are very interested and having trouble. You are giving attention to the
wrong students. Advise their parents and let them take care of it.
"Jeff Laurich" wrote in message
news:7F166BEF09C28F5399C0011410CE1D62@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> PF,
> Exactly. I am training these people to function in the workplace and part
> of that includes instilling a bit of ethics into them. I know that in
these
> days of Enron, the end result seems to be the only thing that matters.
How
> you get there doesn't play into the equation. Hopefully, my students will
> go to work with a better conscience than caduser.
>
> "PF" wrote in message
> news:5350C71E75CCB5AC6C7D58E2CF165B84@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > that only encourages them! - Jeff has a point - and a problem... and I
> > encourage him to "try" to at least illustrate to his students they will
be
> > under greater scrutiny in the future.
> >
> >
> > cad user wrote in message
> > news:34EBC26F2214C8483A2B72202161B6E1@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > Leave them alone.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

Trouble is when they cheat their way into responsible jobs and design you a flunky bridge or something!

[Anonymous]

Good point.  I will be discussing the
situation with them.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"Jon_Kirkham" <
href="mailto:jkirkham@szs.com">jkirkham@szs.com> wrote in message
href="news:f15b96d.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f15b96d.17@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

You
might also explore the possibility that both students lifted the detail from
another source. I'm a community college student myself, and it is not
unprecendented for students to "borrow" details not from classmates, as well
as from people who have previously taken the class.

[Anonymous]

"LynR" wrote in message
news:f15b96d.27@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Trouble is when they cheat their way into responsible jobs and design you
a flunky bridge or something!
>

Or they become your coworker and you have to pick up their slack.

[Anonymous]

I think you have enough info from other answers to determine the DWG's are
identical. Just to answer one part of your question. Handles are not random.
They are hexadecimal numbers assigned in ascending order. If your two
drawing were supposedly developed independently and not started from a
common template. The chances of to objects having identical properties,
including the handles, are extremely remote. Even if they inserted the same
standard blocks they shouldn't have the same handles. Handles are so
sacrosanct that even in the days when there was a "Destroy Handles" command
you had to enter strange confirmations like "UNHANDLE THAT DATABASE" to get
the program to complete the command. Now there is no longer even that
option.
Just couldn't resist the little history lesson.

Allen
"Jeff Laurich" wrote in message
news:2BC678FD7E5B14FBAFB8222EFCA2706F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> To All:
> I am an instructor at a Technical College teaching beginning level AutoCAD
> and I have recently discovered that 2 of my students are "sharing" their
> assigned work. In other words, they are turning in the same drawings as
> their own.
>
> I am 99% sure that they are cheating but need to be 100%. When I use the
> TIME command in AutoCAD, it tells me that both drawings were created at
the
> exact same 1/100 of a second. That's pretty solid evidence, I think,
except
> for the fact that they could have started with the same template or
drawing
> file. I also checked a few random objects in the drawings and the handles
> are identical. That seems to be the deciding clue for me that they are
> indeed using the same drawing.
>
> Does anybody else have any other ideas on how I can be sure about this?
Are
> handles as random as I think they are?
> Thanks for your time,
> Jeff
>
>

[Anonymous]

thanks, Jeff!
I take heart in knowing the Enron ethics and the MTV attemntion span is Not
being Taught! ( I only wish these 'skills' weren't acquired in other ways. -
ah, well. )

Jeff Laurich wrote in message
news:7F166BEF09C28F5399C0011410CE1D62@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> PF,
> Exactly. I am training these people to function in the workplace and part
> of that includes instilling a bit of ethics into them. I know that in
these
> days of Enron, the end result seems to be the only thing that matters.
How
> you get there doesn't play into the equation. Hopefully, my students will
> go to work with a better conscience than caduser.

[Anonymous]

Check out Bill Fane, of the "Learning Curve", method.
bill.fane@cadalyat.com

He has a lisp routine that writes Login ID, Time, and Date as extended data.

Later
Kirk

[Anonymous]

Lets try this e-mail address.
bill.fane@cadalyst.com

Much better

Later
Kirk

[Anonymous]

These are adults, my friend. I don't think talking to their parents will
matter.

You are right that they don't care about the class if they are cheating but
to "leave them alone" as you suggested is unfair to the 13 other students
who have busted their butts to get all the work done.

By the way, I give equal attention to all of my students.

"cad user" wrote in message
news:BEFAB3618806FAE4546A4C6A6637319F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I did not slander you so what's your problem? If they are cheating they
> don't care about the class. You should spend your efforts on the ones
that
> are very interested and having trouble. You are giving attention to the
> wrong students. Advise their parents and let them take care of it.
> "Jeff Laurich" wrote in message
> news:7F166BEF09C28F5399C0011410CE1D62@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > PF,
> > Exactly. I am training these people to function in the workplace and
part
> > of that includes instilling a bit of ethics into them. I know that in
> these
> > days of Enron, the end result seems to be the only thing that matters.
> How
> > you get there doesn't play into the equation. Hopefully, my students
will
> > go to work with a better conscience than caduser.
> >
> > "PF" wrote in message
> > news:5350C71E75CCB5AC6C7D58E2CF165B84@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > that only encourages them! - Jeff has a point - and a problem... and I
> > > encourage him to "try" to at least illustrate to his students they
will
> be
> > > under greater scrutiny in the future.
> > >
> > >
> > > cad user wrote in message
> > > news:34EBC26F2214C8483A2B72202161B6E1@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > > Leave them alone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

That's what I figured, but wan't sure how AutoCAD assigned handles.

"Tracy W. Lincoln" wrote in message
news:3EA6C9EA.A126E3C3@autodesk.com...
> You can also LIST objects and check their HANDLE...
> if multiple objects all have the same handles in two separate files than
the file
> is identical.
>
> *******************************************************
> Please, DO NOT send technical requests to me via private e-mail
> *******************************************************
>
> Tracy W. Lincoln, Assistant Moderator
> Autodesk Discussion Groups Forum Moderator Program
>
>

[Anonymous]

If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then they are
cheating no one but themselves.

Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it took
to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of AutoCAD
than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the value of
"memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD drawing
files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of drawings.

[Anonymous]

Marshall,
I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the number
of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check" drawing, 5%
off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant drawings)...

Craig Black
ATC Manager
Fox Valley Technical College

"Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then they
are
> cheating no one but themselves.
>
> Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
> instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it
took
> to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of AutoCAD
> than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the value of
> "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
drawing
> files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of drawings.
>
>

[Anonymous]

I am not trying to be offensive, but I only ask becuase I am considering
teaching nights at a locate tech school and am interested others grading
policies and approached thanks.

5% for an extra entity? Even though the drawings are extremely simple, what
if a student was to accidently add a point somewhere, which i believe is
considered an entity? 5 points off for a extra point? I agree that the
number of entities should be close. A big diffrence would show that the
student may have exploded his or her dimensions or done something worse.
Which should result in losing some grade points, But to grade on entity
counts? What if a student chose to use a pline instead of lines? They would
be short some entities, correct? There are many ways to construct a drawing
in ACAD.

I use to teach ACAD and graded students on their understanding of the
software and drafting approaches. its true I used to grade the paper drawing
and also picked through the electronic files to assure that dimenisons were
associative and that the student was using autocad and its tools usefully to
save time and were learning the software. But to grade on entity count and
drawing size, what if the student forgot to purge a drawing by accident.
Points off? I'd bring it to there attention so that they understand that
drawing file size is important, but wouldnt deduct points from them unless
they still didnt purge after they were told too a couple of times.

"Craig Black" wrote in message
news:F849E923FD5646E32D69B495966C5F46@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Marshall,
> I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the number
> of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check" drawing,
5%
> off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant drawings)...
>
> Craig Black
> ATC Manager
> Fox Valley Technical College
>
> "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then they
> are
> > cheating no one but themselves.
> >
> > Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
> > instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it
> took
> > to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of
AutoCAD
> > than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the value
of
> > "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
> drawing
> > files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of
drawings.
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

I was also wondering about this. I was thinking of examples, and you
mentioned some of them. Sometimes I need to use lines instead of plines
just because of what my end result will be.

I was also wondering if students are rewarded if they are able to do it with
fewer entities (except those that try to create one entity!).

I assume topics like MTEXT vs regular text, and DIMASSOC (dimaso) are
explained to the students.

Bruce


"jemery0630" wrote in message
news:7FA2E505606C0072C508C37B84DD33D8@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I am not trying to be offensive, but I only ask becuase I am considering
> teaching nights at a locate tech school and am interested others grading
> policies and approached thanks.
>
> 5% for an extra entity? Even though the drawings are extremely simple,
what
> if a student was to accidently add a point somewhere, which i believe is
> considered an entity? 5 points off for a extra point? I agree that the
> number of entities should be close. A big diffrence would show that the
> student may have exploded his or her dimensions or done something worse.
> Which should result in losing some grade points, But to grade on entity
> counts? What if a student chose to use a pline instead of lines? They
would
> be short some entities, correct? There are many ways to construct a
drawing
> in ACAD.
>
> I use to teach ACAD and graded students on their understanding of the
> software and drafting approaches. its true I used to grade the paper
drawing
> and also picked through the electronic files to assure that dimenisons
were
> associative and that the student was using autocad and its tools usefully
to
> save time and were learning the software. But to grade on entity count and
> drawing size, what if the student forgot to purge a drawing by accident.
> Points off? I'd bring it to there attention so that they understand that
> drawing file size is important, but wouldnt deduct points from them unless
> they still didnt purge after they were told too a couple of times.
>
> "Craig Black" wrote in message
> news:F849E923FD5646E32D69B495966C5F46@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Marshall,
> > I work with Jeff - and that's the first thing that we do; check the
number
> > of entities in the drawing. If its not the same as our "check" drawing,
> 5%
> > off right off the bat... (these are not terribly extravagant
drawings)...
> >
> > Craig Black
> > ATC Manager
> > Fox Valley Technical College
> >
> > "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> > news:B8DCF67E81E51602192CD8CF89151312@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > If it's a Technical College where they paid money to attend - then
they
> > are
> > > cheating no one but themselves.
> > >
> > > Years ago I audited an AutoCAD class and found it interesting that the
> > > instructor graded a CAD file not on the drawing but how much memory it
> > took
> > > to do the drawing. At the time I actually had a later version of
> AutoCAD
> > > than the school and better equipment at home, but I did learn the
value
> of
> > > "memory efficiency" in producing CAD drawings and even today my CAD
> > drawing
> > > files are a lot smaller than many others doing the same type of
> drawings.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

Jeff,

I've been in your described situation, only from the student's point.
Here's my story:

We were in a small CAD class at a community college. Our final exam was to
draw all the parts of a C-Clamp and then do an assembly drawing. We were
"allowed" to carry a copy of the software (Generic CADD) home to work on
our project. We were allowed to work in 2 person teams, which a friend and
I did. We each had our own set of drawings, and each was
different. I carried my drawings back and forth to school on a floppy
disk. The night after I turned my final in (I was proud of it....and had
worked very hard on it), the instructor (a part timer) called me at home.
He said that I had cheated, he was very upset, and that the only way I could
make up for it was to have a hand drawing of the assembly in his hands by
noon the next day. He said that three of us had cheated, and not to try to
go to the dean about it, because he would have us expelled. I was upset,
needless to say, but knew that I had to do what he wanted to keep from
getting an "F" in the class. I stayed up, literally, all night working on
it, missed work the next day, and finally finished. On the way to the
class, I called my partner in the class, and she said that she was told the
same thing, and thought she knew who had done the cheating. When I got to
his office, he took it and apologized to me. Seems like this guy in the
class (a real slacker) had seen me working on mine and copied my floppy when
I wasn't looking (we were back and forth to the plotter). He re-named the
files, plotted them out, and turned them in as his own work. He finally
confessed when put under pressure. I was told that the assembly drawing
would count for extra credit, but it ended up not counting for anything (I
really wanted that one back, I was VERY proud of it.). I was not a happy
camper for days, but finally put it behind me.

I guess what I'm saying is, please make sure that the person you accuse is
really guilty. That's been well over 10 years ago, and I'm still not quite
over it.


--
Jason Hickey

Goodwyn, Mills, and Cawood, Inc.
1102 South 20th Street
Birmingham, Alabama, 35205
(205) 879-4462
www.gmcnetwork.com
(Take me out to reply)


"The Ozone layer or cheese in a spray can....don't make me choose."