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What's with all the secrecy?

56 REPLIES 56
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Message 1 of 57
Anonymous
607 Views, 56 Replies

What's with all the secrecy?

Not in this lifetime will I understand how the brains at Autodesk turn.
Would it not be fair at least to let us know what to expect, even in a vague
way. Perhaps this might even aid Autodesk in the sense that if for instance
a PDF writer was going to be incorporated into Autocad shortly one might not
purchase one from somewhere else and then not bother with the upgrade.

Sorry fellas but a little respect towards your client base is long overdue
and I suspect is not in your itinerary.

Dick Barath
56 REPLIES 56
Message 41 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

there is a free / cheap pdfwriter based on Ghostscript available at
www.pdf995.com. It may not have all of the bells and whistles that a
full acrobat install would offer, but it does the job pretty good.
there is a "sponsor window" that pops up from their website whenever
you use it or you can pay the 9.95 to get rid of it. Not a bad deal.

there is also a similarly priced utility to offer some extra pdf
features. Even for 10 bucks, its worth a look-see.
Message 42 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I for one feel that the acquisition of Revit is far more monopolistic than
that of Softdesk. Obviously, since the government punted on M$, Adesk feels
secure and can treat its customers any way it wants. Time for the feds or
and international body to mandate a universal file format, so we can get
some competition in the market. Ain't gonna happen, though.
"Peter Friedrich" wrote in message
news:3D52B96B6ABE769736E4400B3AFEB2CF@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> The secrecy is learned from the Gorilla in Redmond....
> Remember, AutoDesk is playing in the same pen as the gorilla! *
>
> * and, remember, AutoDesk has had charges of unfair competition leveled
> against them, too!
Message 43 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I'd agree! I oppose vaporware... and promises not kept and misleading
marketing.
Just finish it, release it, and let the users decide what's worth using -
like they did with r13.


"David Hogan" wrote in message
news:EDAD2DDB10EF3198F9D3DCD20905980E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Forget the secrecy, how about some consistency? I've never seen so much
> doubletalk as with the ADT/Revit plans.
> "Dick Barath" wrote in message
> news:2253FE9E2E9C9C4E3E4F1AD7A7320399@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Message 44 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

>"David Hogan" wrote in message
>news:EDAD2DDB10EF3198F9D3DCD20905980E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
>> Forget the secrecy, how about some consistency? I've never seen so much
>> doubletalk as with the ADT/Revit plans.

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 07:31:47 -0800, "Peter Friedrich"
wrote:

>I'd agree! I oppose vaporware... and promises not kept and misleading
>marketing.
>Just finish it, release it, and let the users decide what's worth using -
>like they did with r13.

Um...what "misleading" statements from Autodesk are you referring?
What "vaporware?" - Revit is shipping and had been for several years.
Since Revit's aquisition, Autodesk has always said that both products
will continue development, and that they are pushing Revit as the
"solution" to Architectural design in the larger view - which is what
Autodesk has ben re-engineering itself to do for the past 5 years or
so.

The only mistep I've seen is when they pushed Revit as a solution
before the application itself was ready to accept that burden - which
in the software world is pretty much standard operating procedure. But
this does not constitute doubletalk in any way, shape or form.

Autodesk has since stepped back (a bit) publicly and restated that the
marketplace will decide if/when Revit takes over from both ADT and
normal AutoCAD in the AEC world. They still have a LOT of work to do
before that happens, but the principles upon which Revit is built are
sound and are clearly the way to go.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 45 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I didn't mention vaporware, but I did hear conflicting statements when Adesk
was touring hyping Revit from the top presenter (not Lynn Allen), and from
others there and in the weeks following about upgrade pricing and what
packages were being upgraded; how and when. Your statement is in conflict
with what I heard there, that ADT will not continue development beyond 4 or
5, forget which.

> Um...what "misleading" statements from Autodesk are you referring?
> What "vaporware?" - Revit is shipping and had been for several years.
> Since Revit's aquisition, Autodesk has always said that both products
> will continue development, and that they are pushing Revit as the
> "solution" to Architectural design in the larger view -
Message 46 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:49 -0800, "David Hogan"
wrote:

>I didn't mention vaporware,

I know, my reply was for Peter, who did.

>but I did hear conflicting statements when Adesk
>was touring hyping Revit from the top presenter (not Lynn Allen), and from
>others there and in the weeks following about upgrade pricing and what
>packages were being upgraded; how and when. Your statement is in conflict
>with what I heard there, that ADT will not continue development beyond 4 or
>5, forget which.

Phil Bernstein from Autodesk's BID (Bldg Industry Division) said that
without a doubt there will be an ADT 4 and 5, and that the market will
decide if 6+ will happen. But that Revit development is continuing in
a very strong way and that Autodesk is putting a lot of resources
behind it, because it believes the Revit platform is the way to go
(eventually)

Which is just common sense. But Peter's post was just a bunch of
emotional ranting without any hard facts.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 47 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Why is the same not said for Revit? If the market doesn't warrent the
further development of Revit, it'll be dropped. But no, it appears that
Revit is a foregone conclusion and ADT is not. ADT must continue to prove
itself, but Revit need not. The cynical side of me says Autodesk is not
interested in serving the market; rather dictating the market; if not by
compulsion, by attrition.

--
Brian K. Harder
CAD Manager - RNL Design
http://www.rnldesign.com
-----------------------------------------
Remove .ns to email


"Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
news:dlip0v4e86pd85v6gotftih9v6jhscrr2e@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:49 -0800, "David Hogan"
> wrote:
>
> >I didn't mention vaporware,
>
> I know, my reply was for Peter, who did.
>
> >but I did hear conflicting statements when Adesk
> >was touring hyping Revit from the top presenter (not Lynn Allen), and
from
> >others there and in the weeks following about upgrade pricing and what
> >packages were being upgraded; how and when. Your statement is in conflict
> >with what I heard there, that ADT will not continue development beyond 4
or
> >5, forget which.
>
> Phil Bernstein from Autodesk's BID (Bldg Industry Division) said that
> without a doubt there will be an ADT 4 and 5, and that the market will
> decide if 6+ will happen. But that Revit development is continuing in
> a very strong way and that Autodesk is putting a lot of resources
> behind it, because it believes the Revit platform is the way to go
> (eventually)
>
> Which is just common sense. But Peter's post was just a bunch of
> emotional ranting without any hard facts.
>
> Matt
> mstachoni@comcast.net
> mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 48 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

When? In October/Novermber, I heard that 5 was definitely the LAST version.
Of course I heard other things from Adesk folks that later turned out not to
be true (whether due to changes in plans, I don't know). Point is, take
everything you hear about future plans with a grain of salt.
> Phil Bernstein from Autodesk's BID (Bldg Industry Division) said that
> without a doubt there will be an ADT 4 and 5, and that the market will
> decide if 6+ will happen. But that Revit development is continuing in
> a very strong way and that Autodesk is putting a lot of resources
> behind it, because it believes the Revit platform is the way to go
> (eventually)
>
> Which is just common sense. But Peter's post was just a bunch of
> emotional ranting without any hard facts.
>
> Matt
> mstachoni@comcast.net
> mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 49 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Why not? They've done it before.
"Brian Harder" wrote in message
news:540448CC423E901929B7E27A1C3541CD@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Why is the same not said for Revit? If the market doesn't warrent the
> further development of Revit, it'll be dropped. But no, it appears that
> Revit is a foregone conclusion and ADT is not. ADT must continue to prove
> itself, but Revit need not. The cynical side of me says Autodesk is not
> interested in serving the market; rather dictating the market; if not by
> compulsion, by attrition.
>
Message 50 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I think all this speculation about whether Autodesk is going to continue
marketting and developing a product is really silly. They will continue to
do so to leverage as many users as possible. I once did a project for an egg
roll manufacturer who was bought out by Tony's Pizza. I learned an
interesting anecdote from their project manager. This particular egg roll
manufacturer was bought out by Ming Egg Rolls, which is actually owned by
Tony's Pizza, which is actually owned by Schwan Foods...along with a LOT of
other pizza/eggroll/frozen food product lines. He told me that when you buy
about 80% of any frozen pizza from your local Safeway store you're actually
buying from (eventually) the same parent company. By offering a large
variety of names and identities they actually garner a much larger market
share. Why wouldn't Autodesk, or any other company, do the very same thing?
Frozen pizza, software- it's all the same thing.

I grow weary of all the "Chicken Little" fears for the demise of what is a
great product when there's no real evidence such a demise will likely
happen. I can't count the number of times I've heard "I've been told by
reliable sources that ______ is definitely the last release!". This was said
about items such as LISP and even AutoCAD when they came out with the
vertical line of products- yet plain old AutoCAD is probably still
Autodesk's largest revenue generator still and is probably still being
developed and planned for MANY MANY years ahead. Why would they shoot
themselves in the foot and cut off any revenue when they can, by diversity,
generate more?

Robert Grandmaison

"Brian Harder" wrote in message
news:540448CC423E901929B7E27A1C3541CD@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Why is the same not said for Revit? If the market doesn't warrent the
> further development of Revit, it'll be dropped. But no, it appears that
> Revit is a foregone conclusion and ADT is not. ADT must continue to prove
> itself, but Revit need not. The cynical side of me says Autodesk is not
> interested in serving the market; rather dictating the market; if not by
> compulsion, by attrition.
>
> --
> Brian K. Harder
> CAD Manager - RNL Design
> http://www.rnldesign.com
> -----------------------------------------
> Remove .ns to email
>
>
> "Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
> news:dlip0v4e86pd85v6gotftih9v6jhscrr2e@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:49 -0800, "David Hogan"
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I didn't mention vaporware,
> >
> > I know, my reply was for Peter, who did.
> >
> > >but I did hear conflicting statements when Adesk
> > >was touring hyping Revit from the top presenter (not Lynn Allen), and
> from
> > >others there and in the weeks following about upgrade pricing and what
> > >packages were being upgraded; how and when. Your statement is in
conflict
> > >with what I heard there, that ADT will not continue development beyond
4
> or
> > >5, forget which.
> >
> > Phil Bernstein from Autodesk's BID (Bldg Industry Division) said that
> > without a doubt there will be an ADT 4 and 5, and that the market will
> > decide if 6+ will happen. But that Revit development is continuing in
> > a very strong way and that Autodesk is putting a lot of resources
> > behind it, because it believes the Revit platform is the way to go
> > (eventually)
> >
> > Which is just common sense. But Peter's post was just a bunch of
> > emotional ranting without any hard facts.
> >
> > Matt
> > mstachoni@comcast.net
> > mstachoni@bhhtait.com
>
>
Message 51 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

"Chicken Little" ??? KFC?


"Robert Grandmaison" wrote in message
news:44E82036D38008EC17E75FF055C9B4A9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I think all this speculation about whether Autodesk is going to continue
> marketting and developing a product is really silly. They will continue to
> do so to leverage as many users as possible. I once did a project for an
egg
> roll manufacturer who was bought out by Tony's Pizza. I learned an
> interesting anecdote from their project manager. This particular egg roll
> manufacturer was bought out by Ming Egg Rolls, which is actually owned by
> Tony's Pizza, which is actually owned by Schwan Foods...along with a LOT
of
> other pizza/eggroll/frozen food product lines. He told me that when you
buy
> about 80% of any frozen pizza from your local Safeway store you're
actually
> buying from (eventually) the same parent company. By offering a large
> variety of names and identities they actually garner a much larger market
> share. Why wouldn't Autodesk, or any other company, do the very same
thing?
> Frozen pizza, software- it's all the same thing.
>
> I grow weary of all the "Chicken Little" fears for the demise of what is a
> great product when there's no real evidence such a demise will likely
> happen. I can't count the number of times I've heard "I've been told by
> reliable sources that ______ is definitely the last release!". This was
said
> about items such as LISP and even AutoCAD when they came out with the
> vertical line of products- yet plain old AutoCAD is probably still
> Autodesk's largest revenue generator still and is probably still being
> developed and planned for MANY MANY years ahead. Why would they shoot
> themselves in the foot and cut off any revenue when they can, by
diversity,
> generate more?
>
> Robert Grandmaison
>
> "Brian Harder" wrote in message
> news:540448CC423E901929B7E27A1C3541CD@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Why is the same not said for Revit? If the market doesn't warrent the
> > further development of Revit, it'll be dropped. But no, it appears that
> > Revit is a foregone conclusion and ADT is not. ADT must continue to
prove
> > itself, but Revit need not. The cynical side of me says Autodesk is not
> > interested in serving the market; rather dictating the market; if not by
> > compulsion, by attrition.
> >
> > --
> > Brian K. Harder
> > CAD Manager - RNL Design
> > http://www.rnldesign.com
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Remove .ns to email
> >
> >
> > "Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
> > news:dlip0v4e86pd85v6gotftih9v6jhscrr2e@4ax.com...
> > > On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:49 -0800, "David Hogan"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >I didn't mention vaporware,
> > >
> > > I know, my reply was for Peter, who did.
> > >
> > > >but I did hear conflicting statements when Adesk
> > > >was touring hyping Revit from the top presenter (not Lynn Allen), and
> > from
> > > >others there and in the weeks following about upgrade pricing and
what
> > > >packages were being upgraded; how and when. Your statement is in
> conflict
> > > >with what I heard there, that ADT will not continue development
beyond
> 4
> > or
> > > >5, forget which.
> > >
> > > Phil Bernstein from Autodesk's BID (Bldg Industry Division) said that
> > > without a doubt there will be an ADT 4 and 5, and that the market will
> > > decide if 6+ will happen. But that Revit development is continuing in
> > > a very strong way and that Autodesk is putting a lot of resources
> > > behind it, because it believes the Revit platform is the way to go
> > > (eventually)
> > >
> > > Which is just common sense. But Peter's post was just a bunch of
> > > emotional ranting without any hard facts.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > > mstachoni@comcast.net
> > > mstachoni@bhhtait.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 52 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Seems his world did end when he met Col. Sanders.
Murph

"Dustin Harris" <> wrote in message ...
> "Chicken Little" ??? KFC?
>
Message 53 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

"Chicken Little"

Wasn't that a 69 cent "white castle" style chicken burger???


"Murph" wrote in message
news:E1E6BD4F1AB04E815BB66BFD57DF4F68@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Seems his world did end when he met Col. Sanders.
> Murph
>
> "Dustin Harris" <> wrote in message ...
> > "Chicken Little" ??? KFC?
> >
>
>
>
Message 54 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:11:33 -0800, "David Hogan"
wrote:

>When? In October/Novermber, I heard that 5 was definitely the LAST version.

When I was in NYC for Autodesk's Executive Luncheon, Phil said
definitely 4 and 5, and after that was up in the air. He definitely
did NOT say that 5 was the last version, he explicitly said it may or
may not be, that it would be up to the marketplace. He actually said
he would like to see a release 6, but weould not promise anything
after 5.

In fact they really cannot say that 5 would be the last version,
because (a) they don't know what the marketplace is going to do and
(b) it would be pretty stupid, because no one in their right mind
would upgrade to ADT 4 and a soon-to-be-dead platform, and instead sit
with ADT 3.3 or AutoCAD and wait for Revit to become mature. Which in
Autodesk's eyes is DEATH.

They know that people are looking at HUGE increases in ADT
subscription prices, and that companies are starting to seriously
question the yearly fees they are roped into paying Autodesk for
essentialy very little return (Architectural Studiuo notwithstanding).
Companies have had a hell of a time implementing ADT, with many
companies either not really using it or using ti very little, because
the transition has to work with consultants and all downstream team
members as well. Som instead of looking at upgrades with a more
reasoned approach where companies can decide for themselves without
taking a huge penalty, they are almost forced into upgrade costs that
are almost prohibitive for the gain.

Note that Building Systems is not on Revit, and is only on the ADT
platform. This is not going to change overnight, because Adesk has a
lot of work to do with Revit before it becomes robust enough to handle
plugging in BS on top.

> Point is, take everything you hear about future plans with a grain of salt.

Which is exactly why I am not stating anywhere that ADT is going to
die off at release X.

Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 55 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt,

In regards to the following paragraph of your message:

"(...)> Companies have had a hell of a time implementing ADT, with many
> companies either not really using it or using ti very little, because
> the transition has to work with consultants and all downstream team
> members as well. (...)"

Let me share the following:

I attended the Panel Discussion about Architectural Desktop Implementation at Autodesk
University in Las Vegas; there were about 60 people in the room (we could say
representatives from 60 offices as well). Julián González from Autodesk was acting as
the moderator; at the beginning of the session, he asked these 3 questions:

1) Who of you are using Architectural Desktop as AutoCAD?
(about 20 people raised their hands ; that's about 33% of the audience)
2) "Who of you are using just the walls, doors and windows features?"
(about 35 people this time ; that is about 58 % of the audience)
3) "Who is using more features, up to approximately an 80% of ADT's features?")
(about 5 people raised their hands this time; that's the remaining 12%)

So, it is true that the majority of users (88%) either have not even started to use
ADT or have used it only up to its most basic features. There is another percentage,
though, that have done a successful implementation and are moving forward.
The numbers indicate that it takes a especial effort from the user's side to reach a
good level of proficiency with ADT. Do people always have the interest, time and money
that this effort takes? The numbers say that no. Are customers willing to go through a
significant learning curve to use a new program? These numbers say no again. Is it
worthy for those who take the effort? Yes it is.

Alfredo
Message 56 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:07:51 -0800, "Alfredo Medina"
wrote:

>So, it is true that the majority of users (88%) either have not even started to use
>ADT or have used it only up to its most basic features...
>Do people always have the interest, time and money that this effort takes? The numbers say that no. Are customers willing to go through a
>significant learning curve to use a new program? These numbers say no again. Is it worthy for those who take the effort? Yes it is.

The fact that some firms are successfully implementing ADT is a given.
And it is clearly the case that there is a huge hump to get over to
make that transition successful.

And how that plays into Autodesk's plans has to be very much on the
minds of the people at Adesk that make these platform decisions.


Matt
mstachoni@comcast.net
mstachoni@bhhtait.com
Message 57 of 57
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Excellent post.
"Matt Stachoni" wrote in message
news:f6f91vc9vfgte2h4e2bs31p502a9ef2tdh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:11:33 -0800, "David Hogan"
> wrote:
>
> >When? In October/Novermber, I heard that 5 was definitely the LAST
version.
>
> When I was in NYC for Autodesk's Executive Luncheon, Phil said
> definitely 4 and 5, and after that was up in the air. He definitely
> did NOT say that 5 was the last version, he explicitly said it may or
> may not be, that it would be up to the marketplace. He actually said
> he would like to see a release 6, but weould not promise anything
> after 5.
>
> In fact they really cannot say that 5 would be the last version,
> because (a) they don't know what the marketplace is going to do and
> (b) it would be pretty stupid, because no one in their right mind
> would upgrade to ADT 4 and a soon-to-be-dead platform, and instead sit
> with ADT 3.3 or AutoCAD and wait for Revit to become mature. Which in
> Autodesk's eyes is DEATH.
>
> They know that people are looking at HUGE increases in ADT
> subscription prices, and that companies are starting to seriously
> question the yearly fees they are roped into paying Autodesk for
> essentialy very little return (Architectural Studiuo notwithstanding).
> Companies have had a hell of a time implementing ADT, with many
> companies either not really using it or using ti very little, because
> the transition has to work with consultants and all downstream team
> members as well. Som instead of looking at upgrades with a more
> reasoned approach where companies can decide for themselves without
> taking a huge penalty, they are almost forced into upgrade costs that
> are almost prohibitive for the gain.
>
> Note that Building Systems is not on Revit, and is only on the ADT
> platform. This is not going to change overnight, because Adesk has a
> lot of work to do with Revit before it becomes robust enough to handle
> plugging in BS on top.
>
> > Point is, take everything you hear about future plans with a grain of
salt.
>
> Which is exactly why I am not stating anywhere that ADT is going to
> die off at release X.
>
> Matt
> mstachoni@comcast.net
> mstachoni@bhhtait.com

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