Transitioning to and implementing Revit

[KyleDasan]

This is a portion of a post I did in Augi.

"Recently, the company head raised the Red Flag, and said, “We need to go to Revit.”

First off, let me get this out of the way and say that I hate Revit. While I feel that’s it’s a cool flashy program, and I see and like where it’s going, I really don’t see the practicality of it for our companies needs, and feel that it’s not quite there yet. Secondly, you can’t draw in it the same way as you do AutoCAD, and quite frankly, I like AutoCAD’s command interface a helluva lot better than Revit’s. I mean no command line, and no keyboard commands?! C’mon! That’s like a one button mouse! Autodesk take note….don’t you ever….EVER…take away the command line and keyboard commands from AutoCAD. EVER. Okay my rant’s over. I could go on, but I’m in the wrong forum for that. And who knows, after a year, my tune can completely change after using it for a while. But right now, I hate it.

But I’ve been fighting this losing battle for a while now, and it’s time to raise the white flag."

Now I've gotten nothing but praise and well wishes over in Augi, and I do appreciate it. But, what I'm actually looking for here, is the Anti-Revit, or horror stories with a Revit implementation. It's going to happen, I can't stop it. But the more negative info I get, the better I can prepare myself. Quite simply, I've seen the clean, and shiney and pretty. Now I need the down and dirty. Now I need the other side of the coin.

Fire away with your comments.....
Thanks.

[Anonymous]

No issues, transitioned two offices and I am transitioning myself due to
workload to the more efficient REVIT this year from ACA2008. Speed and
production time reduction is what REVIT introduces over ADT/ACA (and if
you're only using plain AutoCAD you are really wasting time).

REVIT requires a design professional who understands building to use it:
it's not about drawing lines, making Pline shapes, using drafting techniques
of old. It's model building, modeling space, nothing cutesy 3D about it it's
real building, 2D CD sheets for contractors just seem to fall out of it.

Formal Training is required: non-design professionals and line-drafters will
have the hardest time with it, it's no longer about drawing random lines on
screen. Command line does not enter into it, there is little ability left to
fudge anymore, you have to work it out instead of dumping it on the
contractor to figure it out.

--
Dean Saadallah
http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com
Add-on products for LT
http://www.pendean.com/lt
--

[Anonymous]

That's been our take on it as well. We have limited our pilot projects to
lump sum projects - and of course we haven't been nearly as productive as
the hype would have us believe due to the learning curve, software issues,
and collaborative issues. The hourly jobs don't get Revit right now.

One of the other issues that is seldom discussed is that many of us do not
work in vacuum. We rely on the abilities and capabilities of others just as
they rely on us in order to be successful project to project. So this
effects progress on BIM implementation, but it also lends to AutoCAD
upgrades, use of PDF vs. DWF, etc. We can't fall too far behind, nor can we
get to far out front and still expect clients and subs to be there with us.
The ultimate productivity increases rely on everyone in your "group" making
the leap at the same time and at the same speed.


"John Schmidt" wrote in message
news:5749749@discussion.autodesk.com...
We've had some discussion on this issue here, where we're moving to Civil 3D
and Revit Structural. Since both these programs are supposed to make you
more efficient in the long run, what to do about this "time/billing" issue?
The direction suggested is to look at charging by the job, not by the hour,
sort of like flat-rate auto repairs. If you're truly more efficient, the
bottom line will reflect this. Of course - it goes both ways...

John

"pkirill" wrote in message
news:5748471@discussion.autodesk.com...

Now you're billing $225/hour for the same amount of work.

[Anonymous]

Here is the question. "Which would you rather do?

Draw 120 sheets of lines. arcs, and circles that represent a building design.

or

Design a building that represents 120 sheets of line, arcs and circles.

I will take Revit over the others anytime.

"It's a bigger step then when we went from the boards to cad."

[Anonymous]

Amen....

--
Dennis Jeffrey, Autodesk Inventor Certified Expert
Autodesk Manufacturing Implementation Certified Expert.
260-399-6615
Instructor/Author/Sr. App Engr.
AIP 11SP3, AIP 2008 SP1, PcCillin AV
HP zv5000 AMD64 ( modified)
Geforce Go 440, Driver: .8185, 2GB RAM
XP Pro SP2, Windows Classic Theme
http://teknigroup.com
"Dean Saadallah" wrote in message
news:5749983@discussion.autodesk.com...
No issues, transitioned two offices and I am transitioning myself due to
workload to the more efficient REVIT this year from ACA2008. Speed and
production time reduction is what REVIT introduces over ADT/ACA (and if
you're only using plain AutoCAD you are really wasting time).

REVIT requires a design professional who understands building to use it:
it's not about drawing lines, making Pline shapes, using drafting techniques
of old. It's model building, modeling space, nothing cutesy 3D about it it's
real building, 2D CD sheets for contractors just seem to fall out of it.

Formal Training is required: non-design professionals and line-drafters will
have the hardest time with it, it's no longer about drawing random lines on
screen. Command line does not enter into it, there is little ability left to
fudge anymore, you have to work it out instead of dumping it on the
contractor to figure it out.

--
Dean Saadallah
http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com
Add-on products for LT
http://www.pendean.com/lt
--

[Anonymous]

lmao

[Anonymous]

Have you tried it?

You went on quite a rant in your OP, and most of it was false pretenses (ie: you cant use shortcuts, and can't draw the wsame way in acad) both of these are incorrect statements as you have already learned...

sounded to me like you never even tried it. when i say "try it"....i mean really try it....work on a project, or take a class.....not read about it on the web...

[KyleDasan]

Sat down on a project to use it? No I haven't done that. Haven't taken a class on it either. But I've been to numerous demo's, opened up the program myself and tentatively played around with it, and walked through one of their tutorials. So while I'm still in the extreme novice stage, I've seen enough to be annoyed and wary of it.

I've shot this down in the past, until the boss saw it in a demo, and went, "Ooo...Pretty! We need to do this!" So, it is what it is, and it's going to be implemented. As I said, I am getting in on the ground floor, and know that there is some major uphill climbing for this company to be fluent in Revit, and to make this program even worth it.

Is the possibilty there? Yes, of course. I honestly believe that this is "the future", but that's 10-15 years away, but I see it more as AutoCAD and Revit becoming more like each other.

[KyleDasan]

Lines, arcs, and circles, all the way. I'd rather have the flexibility for those items to be designed out, then defined later, rather than have to know something up front, especially in the design phase.

[KyleDasan]

Jay,

You've raised some very interesting points, (which is what I was looking for in the first place.) I will certainly bring these to the partners attention, as well as do some of my own scenarios.

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

"...designed out, then defined later, rather than have to know something up
front..."

LOL, that's exactly the difference, a design professional vs. line-drafter,
no fudging, no drawing of meaningless lines for someone to hopefully catch
and correct later (read: change order from the contractors).
If you don't know it up front, you should not be fudging something on paper
to cover your tracks.

Do it right the first time, all the time, know what you are building, find
out what you are doing before you put it all together, issue a correct
accurate CD set: REVIT.

--
Dean Saadallah
http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com
Add-on products for LT
http://www.pendean.com/lt
--

[Anonymous]

ok. Thanks Kyle, now I think we know where you are coming from. This explains why you didn't like Revit.

Revit is certainly more adaptable by designers, and drafters who know how a building is put together. For this is the major difference, as been pointed out many many times.

So typical drafters, or "CAD monkeys" are going to have a very tough time adapting to it.

[Anonymous]

Yes, in my experience as CAD manager and a Revit user, I have seen it a
number of times in my office. 2D drafters especially the ones who love using
AutoCAD have the hardest time learning and using Revit. It is a mindset that
cannot be undone. Some people like to draft and some people like to build.
That is the biggest difference between success or failure with using Revit
or any modeling/database program.

Revit is not for everyone. If Kyle believes that Revit is not good enough or
is not a good fit for his company, then he should just give up using Revit.
He should tell his boss his honest opinion about Revit and their way of
doing things. If both are not compatible with each other, then he and his
company should stick with AutoCAD and their way of doing things.

Regards,
Leo

Kyle, Good Luck!

wrote in message news:5750834@discussion.autodesk.com...
ok. Thanks Kyle, now I think we know where you are coming from. This
explains why you didn't like Revit.

Revit is certainly more adaptable by designers, and drafters who know how a
building is put together. For this is the major difference, as been pointed
out many many times.

So typical drafters, or "CAD monkeys" are going to have a very tough time
adapting to it.

[SRobbins]

Theres 'Designers' and 'Design Architects' one knows how a building goes
together and doesnt need to fake, the other... not so much.

"Dean Saadallah" wrote in message
news:5750400@discussion.autodesk.com...
"...designed out, then defined later, rather than have to know something up
front..."

LOL, that's exactly the difference, a design professional vs. line-drafter,
no fudging, no drawing of meaningless lines for someone to hopefully catch
and correct later (read: change order from the contractors).
If you don't know it up front, you should not be fudging something on paper
to cover your tracks.

Do it right the first time, all the time, know what you are building, find
out what you are doing before you put it all together, issue a correct
accurate CD set: REVIT.

--
Dean Saadallah
http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com
Add-on products for LT
http://www.pendean.com/lt
--

[KyleDasan]

You're comparing Revit to the crappy musical genre of Rap and R&B? Gotta tell ya, you're not helping the Pro-Revit cases there...

[Anonymous]

RAP is not a FAD!! It's a phad...


wrote in message news:5749665@discussion.autodesk.com...
I agree... Revit is a fad... Its like RAP or R&B


wrote in message news:5748144@discussion.autodesk.com...
This is a portion of a post I did in Augi.

"Recently, the company head raised the Red Flag, and said, "We need to go to
Revit."

First off, let me get this out of the way and say that I hate Revit. While I
feel that's it's a cool flashy program, and I see and like where it's going,
I really don't see the practicality of it for our companies needs, and feel
that it's not quite there yet. Secondly, you can't draw in it the same way
as you do AutoCAD, and quite frankly, I like AutoCAD's command interface a
helluva lot better than Revit's. I mean no command line, and no keyboard
commands?! C'mon! That's like a one button mouse! Autodesk take note..don't
you ever..EVER.take away the command line and keyboard commands from
AutoCAD. EVER. Okay my rant's over. I could go on, but I'm in the wrong
forum for that. And who knows, after a year, my tune can completely change
after using it for a while. But right now, I hate it.

But I've been fighting this losing battle for a while now, and it's time to
raise the white flag."

Now I've gotten nothing but praise and well wishes over in Augi, and I do
appreciate it. But, what I'm actually looking for here, is the Anti-Revit,
or horror stories with a Revit implementation. It's going to happen, I
can't stop it. But the more negative info I get, the better I can prepare
myself. Quite simply, I've seen the clean, and shiney and pretty. Now I
need the down and dirty. Now I need the other side of the coin.

Fire away with your comments.....
Thanks.

[Anonymous]

"...If Kyle believes that Revit is not good enough or is not a good fit for his company, then he should just give up using Revit. He should tell his boss his honest opinion about Revit and their way of doing things...."

I don't think Kyle can do this. My guess is that his boss is a designer/architect. Thus seeing the benefits of Revit. Finally! something he can use, that makes sense for what he does, and how he thinks. If Kyle tells his boss what he has been telling us, i don't think he'll be there too much longer....

[Anonymous]

If you go to training... real training... not just demo seminars you'll see
how it is definitely a leap as far as productivity.

for example....

do a colored floor plan with a legend off to the side.
acad way? plines and color hatch.. manually lableing the rooms and areas..
if your good you have att. blocks and maybe a lisp to get the areas of the
poly lines.

revit? place the room spaces make an area plan and click legend. very
fast..

however.. there are somethings that its it has a hard time with...

phasing... gets really tricky. Keynoting... with a custom lists of keynotes
gets REAL frustrating.
remember Revit is relatively a young program. alot of issues will get
resolved as we go along and find them.


being a hard core acad user over the years I have to admit.. Revit just does
so much more than drafting.

as said in theses posts its a different way of thinking. So issuse we have
are just a matter of changing how we do stuff.

try it in steps... you can always export out to acad and carry on.

the people who have the most difficult time with the program are those that
have been doing nothing but replicating hand drafting with acad for years
and have refused to try anything new. They are still using acad the same
way they did when they first started.



M

[Anonymous]

Yeah, job security becomes a real risk when contradicting the wishes of your
superior. Another option is to just hire a person who knows Revit but that
is a scarce comodity.

wrote in message news:5751296@discussion.autodesk.com...
"...If Kyle believes that Revit is not good enough or is not a good fit for
his company, then he should just give up using Revit. He should tell his
boss his honest opinion about Revit and their way of doing things...."

I don't think Kyle can do this. My guess is that his boss is a
designer/architect. Thus seeing the benefits of Revit. Finally! something he
can use, that makes sense for what he does, and how he thinks. If Kyle tells
his boss what he has been telling us, i don't think he'll be there too much
longer....

[Anonymous]

We do a lot of renovation work for an aerospace manufacturer. I was able to
talk our principals into letting me use ADT for a recent job, and it turned
into a bit of a nightmare, possibly due to my own inexperience, but we had
significant difficulty modeling the existing building as it was, and then
adding all of our new modifications. For example, we had two overhead doors
with personnel egress doors next to them; these doors were built into a
structural steel support frame that framed out a new opening in a
masonry/brick wall. How easy would that have been to model in revit and link
to the appropriate schedules. We also had some issues modeling a raised
pedestal computer floor, structural steel trusses & floor beams that when
fully modeled crashed the section generator, difficulty placing openings
into areas that spanned two wall types, difficulty modeling concrete
footings & trenches to actual geometry so that they would section properly.

I can see where REVIT would work pretty well in a completely new building.
Are there any significant challenges to working with existing conditions?
For example, if I have an exterior masonry wall system in a new building,
the model can assume that the wall will be built at a consistent thickness.
How do I model an existing wall that is one thickness at one existing door
opening, and another thickness 20'-0" away?

"Dean Saadallah" wrote in message
news:5749983@discussion.autodesk.com...
No issues, transitioned two offices and I am transitioning myself due to
workload to the more efficient REVIT this year from ACA2008. Speed and
production time reduction is what REVIT introduces over ADT/ACA (and if
you're only using plain AutoCAD you are really wasting time).

REVIT requires a design professional who understands building to use it:
it's not about drawing lines, making Pline shapes, using drafting techniques
of old. It's model building, modeling space, nothing cutesy 3D about it it's
real building, 2D CD sheets for contractors just seem to fall out of it.

Formal Training is required: non-design professionals and line-drafters will
have the hardest time with it, it's no longer about drawing random lines on
screen. Command line does not enter into it, there is little ability left to
fudge anymore, you have to work it out instead of dumping it on the
contractor to figure it out.

--
Dean Saadallah
http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com
Add-on products for LT
http://www.pendean.com/lt
--

[Anonymous]

>.do a colored floor plan with a legend off to the side.
acad way? plines and color hatch.. manually lableing the rooms and areas..
if your good you have att. blocks and maybe a lisp to get the areas of the
poly lines.<<

This must be vanilla acad you're talking about here?

>>revit? place the room spaces make an area plan and click legend. very
>>fast..<<

basically the same procedure as in aca'08

Paul

"m1gu37" wrote in message
news:5751659@discussion.autodesk.com...
If you go to training... real training... not just demo seminars you'll see
how it is definitely a leap as far as productivity.

for example....

do a colored floor plan with a legend off to the side.
acad way? plines and color hatch.. manually lableing the rooms and areas..
if your good you have att. blocks and maybe a lisp to get the areas of the
poly lines.

revit? place the room spaces make an area plan and click legend. very
fast..

however.. there are somethings that its it has a hard time with...

phasing... gets really tricky. Keynoting... with a custom lists of keynotes
gets REAL frustrating.
remember Revit is relatively a young program. alot of issues will get
resolved as we go along and find them.


being a hard core acad user over the years I have to admit.. Revit just does
so much more than drafting.

as said in theses posts its a different way of thinking. So issuse we have
are just a matter of changing how we do stuff.

try it in steps... you can always export out to acad and carry on.

the people who have the most difficult time with the program are those that
have been doing nothing but replicating hand drafting with acad for years
and have refused to try anything new. They are still using acad the same
way they did when they first started.



M