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Active Contributor
kartz
Posts: 41
Registered: ‎09-12-2003
Message 1 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Should Engineers Do Thier Own Drafting?

1474 Views, 39 Replies
01-21-2001 11:56 PM
 
Active Contributor
kartz
Posts: 41
Registered: ‎09-12-2003
Message 2 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re: Should Engineers Do Thier Own Drafting?

01-22-2001 12:02 AM in reply to: kartz
Sorry, I hit Enter too soon. My question is to all CAD Managers (official or not). Do the engineers/architects in your office turn out their own sets of plans? Or do you have draftsman or CAD operators who do the plans. Is it too much to expect an engineer/architect to know all the ins and outs of AutoCAD, Civil Design, Survey, ADT, etc.? If your engineers/architects do their own drafting, how is it? Are they plans that you can be proud of or are they slopped together things that you hope you never have to revise? Please let me know your thoughts/experiences.
Kim Artz
Washington County Engineering
*Richardson, Randy
Message 3 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re: Should Engineers Do Thier Own Drafting?

01-22-2001 12:08 AM in reply to: kartz
Only if they have a very light workload, and have excellent drafting skills.
Otherwise, that's what drafters are for.

In other words, no.

kartz wrote in message ...
>
>
Active Contributor
kartz
Posts: 41
Registered: ‎09-12-2003
Message 4 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 12:08 AM in reply to: kartz
Thanks Randy for your quick reply. I need as many opinions as I can get because I'm on the war path. I would like to be able to print out the response to this and go to my boss. We have some people here turning out plans that don't meet our standards but because these people are higher up the food chain that me, I can't do much about it without some support.
Kim Artz
*Scott
Message 5 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 12:16 AM in reply to: kartz
In my office, it doesn't matter how high up the
food chain you are... YOU FOLLOW THE STANDARDS!!! If an engineer wants to sketch
ideas and have a drafter polish it off, that's fine BUT AGAIN, the engineer
better follow our standards.


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Thanks
Randy for your quick reply. I need as many opinions as I can get because I'm
on the war path. I would like to be able to print out the response to this and
go to my boss. We have some people here turning out plans that don't meet our
standards but because these people are higher up the food chain that me, I
can't do much about it without some support.
Kim
Artz
*Yoder, S.
Message 6 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re: Should Engineers Do Thier Own Drafting?

01-22-2001 12:42 AM in reply to: kartz
We've only had one engineer who really did drawings, but he was electrical
and these were single-line diagram-type drawings. Not much to mess up in
the way of accuracy (ala dimensions) and the electrical dept was kind of in
their own little world.

Of the three structural engineers we've had, two could get around AutoCAD
enough to plot and look at stuff. They never produced drawings, but if they
"tinkered" it was handed off to a drafter to clean up. Usually these
"tinkerings" are little details that don't have much to clean up.

The current PE we have has taken an AutoCAD class, which was applied to
keeping up his certification. He's slow, but he's actually quite good at
following our standards and drawing with dimensional accuracy. I think this
is because he's heard our complaints too many times when we get a new
drafter that won't follow standards and/or draw accurately. He know's he's
slow and therefore rarely does any drawing for us, but he has done drawings
that were used for an addition to his house. I have worked on his drawings
and would gladdly do so again.

A little over a year ago we joined with a larger company (~400 people) for
a job and went to their office. It seemed about the same there - most of
the engineers could "tinker" in AutoCAD but they didn't produce drawings.
This company's CAD standards manual was as thick as your fist and if it
wasn't "by the book" you would get called on the carpet (even us). Oh, they
weren't too inflexable as we did manage to talk them into using xrefs, but
they did have a lot of LISPs to make sure the standards were followed.
Dimensional accuracy, by the drafters, was held to in the mech dept.
However the struc dept was still typing lots of dimensions in by hand.

I think your best argument is going to be "time=money", "standards=speed",
"dimensional accuracy=speed". If _both_ of the last two can be met by the
person then the first is a given and all are happy.

Enjoy,
Stef
--
mailto: yodersj@ipass.net || Drafter, Leather-worker
http://www.ipass.net/~yodersj/ || Dos, Win, LT
in progress http://computerhowto.homestead.com/
RFC 1855, section 3.1.1, item 10 at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/
*Allen, Dan
Message 7 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 12:45 AM in reply to: kartz
Speaking as an architect, I think the real question is a matter of
efficiency. Can one engineer keep multiple drafters busy or is it one
engineer=one draftsperson? I would argue for what ever produces the most
efficient flow of work. (And of course they all need to follow standards)

Dan

"kartz" wrote in message
news:ef67d1f.1@WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> Sorry, I hit Enter too soon. My question is to all CAD Managers (official
or not). Do the engineers/architects in your office turn out their own sets
of plans? Or do you have draftsman or CAD operators who do the plans. Is it
too much to expect an engineer/architect to know all the ins and outs of
AutoCAD, Civil Design, Survey, ADT, etc.? If your engineers/architects do
their own drafting, how is it? Are they plans that you can be proud of or
are they slopped together things that you hope you never have to revise?
Please let me know your thoughts/experiences.
> Kim Artz
> Washington County Engineering
>
Contributor
KenP
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎04-10-2001
Message 8 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 03:02 AM in reply to: kartz
The senior engineers in our firm do not have AutoCAD installed on their computers, but are firmly behind standards. Most of our drafting is by technicians or E.I.T's. The E.I.T.'s are give a one-day training by a technician to give them an overview of the standards and network set-up. After that they're pretty good about asking questions and defering to the techs. If they mess up with the standards we literally slap their hands! Few make the same mistake twice! We also have in-house seminars to continue AutoCAD training. The senior engineers are invited to (and attend) these so they know the limitations of the software and what it takes to get the job done.
*Audie
Message 9 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 04:00 AM in reply to: kartz
There is no right answer. 

 

I am the cad manager in a civil
engineering/surveying office with about 15 AutoCAD users.  I have been
using AutoCAD since 1987, release 2.6.  I have done
lots of customizing, and some lisp programming. 
I am not the
fastest, but we use LDD2 and I am the most familiar with the DESIGN features of
the software.  We have no real standards
here.  I've been trying to get some in place for several years.  The
drafters won't have anything to do with letting someone tell them how to do
their jobs, or how "their" drawings should look.  They each do their own
thing outside a few guidelines for fonts and linetypes.  Somehow all the
people putting out plans seem to create acceptable work (i.e. No one has
anything bad to say about anyone else's drawings/plans).

 

If your firm is using the software for design, then
the DESIGNER should be using CADD (computer assisted drafting/DESIGNING). 
I see no reason to sketch a road centerline on a piece of paper so someone who
has no idea why I put it there can trace it into CADD for me.  I can put it
there faster, and with more thought given to the design myself.  I realize
that things vary greatly from discipline to discipline, but for land development
work I feel we are moving away from an engineer/drafter team to a designer
environment.

 

In our office the top CADD users consist of
licensed engineers and surveyors.  They are not as fast as the cad jocks,
but are more accurate, and more knowledgeable about what the software will do
for them, and therefore can speed up the "design process".  If we could
find more qualified drafters we would hire them.  They don't seem to be
available.

 

It sounds to me like you have a problem with
standards, and personnel, not a problem with who is producing your
drawings.  Anyone who cares about what they are doing has no excuse for
producing a graphically poor plan set.

 

Just my $0.02,

Audie D. Osgood, P.E.

 

 

 


style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
Sorry,
I hit Enter too soon. My question is to all CAD Managers (official or not). Do
the engineers/architects in your office turn out their own sets of plans? Or
do you have draftsman or CAD operators who do the plans. Is it too much to
expect an engineer/architect to know all the ins and outs of AutoCAD, Civil
Design, Survey, ADT, etc.? If your engineers/architects do their own drafting,
how is it? Are they plans that you can be proud of or are they slopped
together things that you hope you never have to revise? Please let me know
your thoughts/experiences.
Kim Artz
Washington County
Engineering
*brooks, chris
Message 10 of 40 (1,474 Views)

Re:

01-22-2001 04:49 AM in reply to: kartz
I think we are in a transition period as far as this question goes. As
usual, we must realize engineers are different from architects. As an up
and coming architect (degree/no license) with over ten years drafting
experience, I do my own drafting. For me, it is simply not efficient to
spend a day trying to red-mark drawings clearly enough for someone to pick
up with satisfactory results. I can easily circle a problem with a note
that says "Fix", and I will know what it means. If I have to work out a
detail , there is no reason why I shouldn't work it out in CAD and be done
with it. I am seeing architects in general moving in this direction. A
rough generalization would be that architects that drew by hand that still
don't work with CAD, never will work with CAD. I will assume the same for
engineers.

Engineers seem to be behind architects where doing your own drafting is
concerned. Office culture may be to blame for this as I have seen young
engineers leave school with substantial CAD skills, enter the office
environment where they are coerced into thinking that they are too important
to waste their time drafting but yet can spend an equal amount of time
marking up drawings for someone else to "put into CAD".

On the other hand, I have also seen young engineers come out of school,
enter the workforce and not only engineer, but draft their projects as well.
In half the time described above. As a matter of fact, the best CAD
operator I know happens to be an electrical engineer. So I know its
possible for engineers to draft themselves.

There are different types of folks in offices. From degreed professionals
who can't draw their way out of a paper bag to CAD jocks who don't have the
foggiest idea of what they are drawing. These two extremes work well
together, but it takes two of them to produce a good set of documents.
Whereas folks that fall somewhere in the middle have the ability to
single-handedly produce a good set of documents.

Of course, standards should be followed no matter who you are or what your
title is. And finally, if an individual has the mental faculties capable of
earning a degree, license and title, they have the ability to learn CAD, no?

There is something quite ironic about the way some engineers (and architects
also) will look down their noses at draftspeople yet rely on them so much to
complete their work. Wouldn't that make it "our" work? I digress.

It's funny, some days I long for a stack of (good) redlines where all I have
to do is kick 'em out, but I never look forward to having to redline for
someone other than myself.

good luck
chris

"kartz" wrote in message
news:ef67d1f.1@WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> snip>Please let me know your thoughts/experiences.
> Kim Artz
> Washington County Engineering
>
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