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Problems Justifying AutoCAD Upgrades

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Message 1 of 76
dfaykosh
617 Views, 75 Replies

Problems Justifying AutoCAD Upgrades

Can someone please help me with any info to help justify upgrading my AutoCAD software. How can I convince management to keep my software current? I have 2000i and need to convince them that an upgrade would be both beneficial and productive to the company. Their attitude is if it ain't broke, why fix it. Or, are you missing something? or does something not work? In the past, upgrading the CAD package was only possible when my R14 licence was about to expire. This forced an upgrade (or the company would risk paying full price for a new AutoCAD seat). And I was only allowed to upgrade to the 2000i level when AutoCAD 2002 was already being released. I still have 2000i and not much chance to move up until this license is due to expire. (Please tell me 2000 and 2000i expire soon!) In the meantime, I'm missing valuable hands on training on new features. Articles in magazines are useless. Training is no longer available by the time they decide to upgrade. Job Posting call for experience in the latest AutoCAD version. I fear I will be behind if they let me go here. Anyhow, if there are any articles, good web sites, magazines, anything at all to help me, please let me know. I would certainly appreciate it. Thanks for your time.
75 REPLIES 75
Message 61 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

The reverse is also true, spending to much time /
money on equipment and software can be noticed as a company that wastes money
and over charges for there work to compensate...finding that perfect balance is
a fine line and varies depending on the client base that one is attempting to
work with...this isnt a keep up with the Jones competition, just because your
neighbor has a new boat you wouldnt go buy a bigger one would you...get the
software up to the speed that you really need, take a cad group and upgrade them
preferablay one of the smaller better ones and see how they do with it and ask
them for there opinions about what to do...then you can test it first hand, and
they can start building the correct drivers and changeing over menu structures
for you before you upgrade all the machines and waste downtime company
wide...

 

Eric


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I'm
with you on that one. There is no doubt I'd go with the leaders instead of
cheapo companies that scrimp on upgrades. A client would figure they're also
scrimp on the project.
Message 62 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:00:50 -0800, DaveF
wrote:

> And if you lose your job, you're out of the market, because you're way behind everyone else.
> Experience in "AutoCAD R13" looks great on your resume.

That would make upgrading a benefit to myself. But it is the
benefit to the company which is the discussion here. Staying current
with other companies is a significant concern, even if it is a lame
"benefit" of the upgraded program.

99% of what the our office does with Acad, only use features which
were in version 12. The only significant feature we use that have
been added since then is 3D orbit. (though for reliable snapping, I
must still use the old HIDE command)

Joe Dunfee
Message 63 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Amen. We didn't renew last year because nothing
worthwhile had come in the previous year. Of course, now we'd have to pay a ton
to get Revit, so we won't be doing that either. I don't think Adesk understands
how many firms won't upgrade without a clearer picture of the future plans for
ADT and Revit, and with some incentives.


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While the subscription is good in theory
it still isn't the best.  Anyone who upgraded around this time last
year and got the subscription did not get any new release of Autocad. 
With that little fact your boss may not want to put money each
year without getting at least a major release.

 
Message 64 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

I wouldn't call my boss a baboon-he signs my
paychecks. He also does CAD and steadfastly refuses to learn PS/MS, Xrefs, etc.
That means the office does as well. Trouble is, it doesn't significantly impact
their ability to do their rather repetitive work. Objectively, for many small
offices, there is no reason to upgrade to the latest and greatest.


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Marshall, you think you have
to totally retrain everyone? We're talking about upgrading from 2000i to 2002
here, not teaching autocad all over again from scratch, are we? You must work
with a bunch of baboons. c.prettyman is correct, you only need a couple of
hours to go over the new features.
Message 65 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Get over it, it's just a tool.


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Right
on, who would take a job where they're still running R14, tells you a lot
about the Company. What type of individual would be there long term? I think
upgrading to the latest version is a good policy and shows you that the
Company wants to be leaders and attract the best available
staff.
Message 66 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

There is always a reason to upgrade, even for a
small ( we are a two seat office) one. The reason is just not as compelling
for some offices as it is for others. It is not so much to jump on the "upgrade
bandwagon" so much as it is to keep our software current. And, as it happens, we
use the upgrades to good advantage even though we could do basically the same
thing with R12.

 

Dave Alexander


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I wouldn't call my boss a baboon-he signs my
paychecks. He also does CAD and steadfastly refuses to learn PS/MS, Xrefs,
etc. That means the office does as well. Trouble is, it doesn't significantly
impact their ability to do their rather repetitive work. Objectively, for many
small offices, there is no reason to upgrade to the latest and
greatest.


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face=Arial size=2>
 
Message 67 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Um, it's just a tool...


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man
you hit it on the head!!



like the haves and the have nots...there are the get its and the donts.

Miguel

Message 68 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

I wouldn't hire a contractor who doesn't use effective tools, watch a roofer
these days? Would you hire one who doesn't think an air nail gun is an
upgrade that's worthwhile? His competitor will do your roof and your
neighbors while the other guy is getting his ladders up....

If I was "looking" at a potential employer and they used R14, I would lose
interest fast, same is true for 2000 or 2000i. If it's the tool you use all
day long it does matter whether it's effective or not.

I'm teaching a drafting class at a local comm. college and they have 2000
and 2000i. The improvements in 2002 may be subtle but I bump into them
every class. Consistent upgrades makes the learning curve go more
"quietly".

Steve

"David Hogan" wrote in message
news:4B55B1DD3A0757F6B35B3768E66BF1A9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
Um, it's just a tool...
"Miguel" wrote in message
news:f143126.68@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
man you hit it on the head!!
like the haves and the have nots...there are the get its and the donts.
Miguel
Message 69 of 76
cprettyman
in reply to: dfaykosh

I have often wondered what would happen if the architectural word treated CAD software teh way it used to treat drafting wequipment. As I recall, from those long distant days of my youth, most offices provided a desk, a mayline, and there were a few office owned scales and triangles floating around, but in general, each drafter was expected to provide his own scale, his own triangles, etc. Imagine if the office provided a basic platform - a PC, but that was it, and maybe there was a stray AutoCAD 12 license laying around, but you were expected to bring your own software, and if you wanted any wizzbang utilities to make it run better, those were definitely on you own nickel - how would the world be different?
Message 70 of 76
cprettyman
in reply to: dfaykosh

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with you whole-heartedly on 2000 to 2002, there are sufficient small improvements to make it absolutely worth while. 2000i to 2002 is a tougher call, but given the time since 2002was released, and the likelihood of 2003, or whatever it gets called, being released within the year, I would say that purchasing the upgrade, and using that as an entry point into the subscription program is probably worthwhile.
Message 71 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

I once suggested this idea on a CAD newsgroup
and everyone thought I was nuts.  Obviously it would change the dynamics of
financing an A&E office as well as the fee structure.  With laptops now
achieving the power of a workstation, I really wouldn't be surprised to see
some A&E offices in the future set up with a network server upon which
to store office work and each employee be required to furnish his or her own
computer with a network card and company compatible software.  Any employee
expenses relative to their job would be a legitimate employee business
expense.  It would also shift the burden to the employee to keep up-to-date
with software and hardware improvements.  I would certainly change the
definition/work load of an IT manager/department since each employee would be
responsible for his own equipment.  Frankly, I've never really understood
why so many A&E firms bought into the idea that they had to go from
furnishing only a drafting table and parallel bar for employees to furnishing
each employee with a $5000 work station in order to produce the same thing that
was done with the other - the only end product accepted by most state laws - a
drawing with a professional seal!  People sometimes tend to forget that CAD
programs and computers are only a tool - a very good tool but never-the-less
simply a tool, just like a pencil and triangles.


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I
have often wondered what would happen if the architectural word treated CAD
software teh way it used to treat drafting wequipment. As I recall, from those
long distant days of my youth, most offices provided a desk, a mayline, and
there were a few office owned scales and triangles floating around, but in
general, each drafter was expected to provide his own scale, his own
triangles, etc. Imagine if the office provided a basic platform - a PC, but
that was it, and maybe there was a stray AutoCAD 12 license laying around, but
you were expected to bring your own software, and if you wanted any wizzbang
utilities to make it run better, those were definitely on you own nickel - how
would the world be different?
Message 72 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Most likely it's founded in the fact the early cadd systems cost an office a
million dollars or more to buy in. Employee's weren't going to be in a
position to ante up for that then....now, my personal PC is "hotter" than my
office PC....but actually doing what you ponder I suspect "creates" as many
issues as it "resolves"?? Nonetheless I've thought similarly in the past
too. At my last office I used my personal PC for 8 months (4.5 years ago)
until the owner was able to deal with a number of EyeTee issues. Worked
fine for me, though I missed having it at home.

Steve


"Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
news:47C16E48A3F5B959A8E167AA52386FB3@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
I once suggested this idea on a CAD newsgroup and everyone thought I was
nuts. Obviously it would change the dynamics of financing an A&E office as
well as the fee structure. With laptops now achieving the power of a
workstation, I really wouldn't be surprised to see some A&E offices in the
future set up with a network server upon which to store office work and each
employee be required to furnish his or her own computer with a network card
and company compatible software. Any employee expenses relative to their
job would be a legitimate employee business expense. It would also shift
the burden to the employee to keep up-to-date with software and hardware
improvements. I would certainly change the definition/work load of an IT
manager/department since each employee would be responsible for his own
equipment. Frankly, I've never really understood why so many A&E firms
bought into the idea that they had to go from furnishing only a drafting
table and parallel bar for employees to furnishing each employee with a
$5000 work station in order to produce the same thing that was done with the
other - the only end product accepted by most state laws - a drawing with a
professional seal! People sometimes tend to forget that CAD programs and
computers are only a tool - a very good tool but never-the-less simply a
tool, just like a pencil and triangles.
"c.prettyman" wrote in message
news:f143126.79@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
I have often wondered what would happen if the architectural word treated
CAD software teh way it used to treat drafting wequipment. As I recall, from
those long distant days of my youth, most offices provided a desk, a
mayline, and there were a few office owned scales and triangles floating
around, but in general, each drafter was expected to provide his own scale,
his own triangles, etc. Imagine if the office provided a basic platform - a
PC, but that was it, and maybe there was a stray AutoCAD 12 license laying
around, but you were expected to bring your own software, and if you wanted
any wizzbang utilities to make it run better, those were definitely on you
own nickel - how would the world be different?
Message 73 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Personally this seems like an extremely dangerous mind set. If like minds
prevailed then the assembly line would have never gotten off the ground.

Increased productivity doesn't mean a decrease in needed labor it means
increased profits. It means you can sell the same job at the same price but
your profit margin increases.

To decrease your labor is short sighted. It limits you to the same level of
work that you had with three people, rather than having the labor at the
ready when the jobs come in.

By your model, everytime you have an increase in productivity you fire your
staff and then rehire a new staff and retrain them everytime your work load
increases. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty foolish to me.

Regards,
CMF

"Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
news:EDA62D8C86926524E85B35E7A377668D@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Chris:
>
> See Terry Drewes post below and my response below that! Bear in mind that
> I'm an architect who gets paid for producing contract documents so I can
> only address software upgrades from that perspective. In my case I'm both
> labor and management so I clearly see both points of view. What I see in
> this thread is that most people posting tend to look at upgrades from a
user
> point of view rather than the viewpoint of the person who actually has to
> spend the money out of his pocket. If management were to ask each
employee
> if they were willing to pay for the upgrade themselves (out of their
> paycheck) - how many do you think would be willing to put their personal
> money where their mouth is.
>
> I've always agreed that if the increased productivity allows for the same
> amount of work (production) in less time whereby management can reduce
labor
> cost by a reduction in personnel (shall we say layoff) or if management
can
> provide more work (and thereby increase billings) to fill in the time
saved
> (more work with the same labor cost), then by all means any upgrade is
worth
> whatever its cost. The problem is that in today's slow economic climate
> there really isn't that much additional work available!
>
> Simply saving time with new software without a use for that time is
> pointless - especially if you have to pay for employees to sit around with
> nothing to do because the new software cut a job from 40 hours to 32
hours.
>
> Reasons for management to upgrade software boils down to one of two
reasons
> (1) a want decision - which negates any rational reason or (2) an economic
> decision of capital versus labor. I suppose I could add one more reason -
> to protect your right to upgrade your version of AutoCAD at some future
> date.
>
> "Chris Ferris" wrote in message
> news:E99EB733276DAD40E5339C0EEEB8AC65@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > You're also neglecting *increased* productivity that comes from proper
> > training and implementation.
> >
> > Without that the numbers are biased and therefore moot.
> >
> > CMF
> >
> > "Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
> > news:0A8D65091925B697721FAD00D78C343E@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > Tracy:
> > >
> > > You're neglecting to include the lost billable hours for the office
> > > personnel while they are in "class." The $12,000 isn't just the cost
of
> > the
> > > cost of the training. Actually I didn't include the $500/person/class
> so
> > > you could really tack on another $500/seat for the training class. I
> was
> > > only talking about lost billable hours in the $12,000 figure.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 74 of 76
DaveF
in reply to: dfaykosh

I certainly agreed with that, Chris
Message 75 of 76
Anonymous
in reply to: dfaykosh

Thanks for the support Dave.

 

One last thing I forgot to mention in my
response.  Just because an employee is not working on a billable job
doesn't mean that the employee is sittting around doing nothing.  There is
always infrastructure stuff one can do for the company (reviewing company
standards, training, research into possible marketplaces, etc...). 

 

All of this, if done correctly can also contribute
to the bottom line (standards improve turnaround time for a job, training can
add to an employee's productivity, and the research is self
explanatory).

 

Remember, business do one of two things:  They
grow, or they fold.

 

Cheers,

CMF


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I
certainly agreed with that, Chris
Message 76 of 76
TrevorE
in reply to: dfaykosh

There is no reverse. Can you name one company that spends too much money on equipment and software? I doubt it.

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