National CAD Standards Pen Map

[Anonymous]

I was just wondering if many firms out there have adopted the Pen Map of the National CAD Standards. I work for a Civil Engineering firm and am wondering if utilizing that standard would make sense for us.

[Anonymous]

We are currently in the process of adopting parts of the NCS, but that
is one section we are ignoring. It is just too limiting.

In article , mikepartenheimer@hotmail.com
says...
> I was just wondering if many firms out there have adopted the Pen Map of the National CAD Standards. I work for a Civil Engineering firm and am wondering if utilizing that standard would make sense for us.
>

[Shibish]

I had looked into the pen settings at one time and discarded them. The way they had the pen color and pen weight tied together was opposite the way most people would look at the drawing (i.e. brighter color = heavier line). I ran a drawing past some of my users that showed all the autocad colors and we discarded the colors that were hard to see. What was left didn't conform well to the NCS pen settings.

[Anonymous]

This is one sectioni of the NCS that I think needs
to be re-thought. There simply isn't enough options for plotting with the
technology of today. For instance, the thinnest pen width recognized is 0.007".
For hatching we use lines much thinner than that. As I've been able to
determine, the reason may be that many agencies still shoot microfilm of
drawings. Any pens thinner than 0.007 simply get lost in that
process.

Also, there isn't any real mention of what,
exactly, a "halftone" is. Is it 50% screening only? We use 30%, 50% and 70%
values.

I like the overal concept and the way it works in
conjunction with the AutoCAD Color Index (though I'm sure ustn/dcad/etc users
don't!) but I think the implementation of it needs to be
re-evaluated.

Cheers,

Robert Grandmaison

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"Partenheimer" <
href="mailto:mikepartenheimer@hotmail.com">mikepartenheimer@hotmail.com>
wrote in message
href="news:f0c93fa.-1@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f0c93fa.-1@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

I
was just wondering if many firms out there have adopted the Pen Map of the
National CAD Standards. I work for a Civil Engineering firm and am wondering
if utilizing that standard would make sense for us.

[jmodglin]

I work for a Civil Engineering firm and we just recently implemented a new 'Pen Map' based on NCS. We did not have enough "Halftones" so we edited 8, 9 to be halftones and we tweaked the sizes but all in all it works great! Joshua Modglin

[Anonymous]

We also have adopted a modified version of the NDS color/line weight.
One of the issues that I see constantly being brought up is trying to
make the line weights match the colors on screen, the brightest on
screen being the heaviest line weight. The problem with this concept is
that each person sees colors differently. Some are colorblind. I have
worked in several offices, some which use color brightness as the guide
and some that use placement on the acad diagram as the guide, and I have
found that the easiest to use is the ones that don't use the brightness.
As in the NDS red is the thinnest at 0.007. This is the first color
on the ACAD color dialog box. The line weights get thicker as you move
along down to white being the thickest. Left is thin, right is thick.
You have a relative position to use.

The other thing that the NDS allows is the designation of color for
types of objects. The color sequence from 90-99 could be for doors,
with a full line weight range. The color sequence from 130-139 could
be for glazing with a full line weight range. The sequence from 190-199
could be for walls. etc. etc.

This is actually quite an intuitive system. The higher the last digit,
the heavier the line.

We too have added a thinner line weight as well. We changed the xx7
colors to be 0.002 for those times we want really thin.

I have placed a file in the CF (Subject: NDS pen map) that has a dwg the
shows the colors and plots the thickness. There is a ctb file NDS.ctb
that is associated. There is also a layout on the drawing that plots
the AIA layers that come with Architectural Desktop.

Sorry for the lecture.

Mike Sapp
Integrare Architecture
Eugene OR, 97401



jmodglin wrote:

> I work for a Civil Engineering firm and we just recently implemented a
> new 'Pen Map' based on NCS. We did not have enough "Halftones" so we
> edited 8, 9 to be halftones and we tweaked the sizes but all in all it
> works great! Joshua Modglin

[Anonymous]

replied to you in customer files with another similar ctb - addresses the
250's (greys) a bit differently.
being a long time user (my first AutoCAD ran with an amber screen), I am not
as enthralled with multiple colors as some folks - I am a layer freak though
(everything in its place and a place for everything, just don't go overboard
with every itty-bitty piece of something).

"Mike Sapp" wrote in message
news:3C9FAAC8.3010805@integrarearch.com...
> We also have adopted a modified version of the NDS color/line weight.
> One of the issues that I see constantly being brought up is trying to
> make the line weights match the colors on screen, the brightest on
> screen being the heaviest line weight. The problem with this concept is
> that each person sees colors differently. Some are colorblind. I have
> worked in several offices, some which use color brightness as the guide
> and some that use placement on the acad diagram as the guide, and I have
> found that the easiest to use is the ones that don't use the brightness.
> As in the NDS red is the thinnest at 0.007. This is the first color
> on the ACAD color dialog box. The line weights get thicker as you move
> along down to white being the thickest. Left is thin, right is thick.
> You have a relative position to use.
>
> The other thing that the NDS allows is the designation of color for
> types of objects. The color sequence from 90-99 could be for doors,
> with a full line weight range. The color sequence from 130-139 could
> be for glazing with a full line weight range. The sequence from 190-199
> could be for walls. etc. etc.
>
> This is actually quite an intuitive system. The higher the last digit,
> the heavier the line.
>
> We too have added a thinner line weight as well. We changed the xx7
> colors to be 0.002 for those times we want really thin.
>
> I have placed a file in the CF (Subject: NDS pen map) that has a dwg the
> shows the colors and plots the thickness. There is a ctb file NDS.ctb
> that is associated. There is also a layout on the drawing that plots
> the AIA layers that come with Architectural Desktop.
>
> Sorry for the lecture.
>
> Mike Sapp
> Integrare Architecture
> Eugene OR, 97401
>
>
>
> jmodglin wrote:
>
> > I work for a Civil Engineering firm and we just recently implemented a
> > new 'Pen Map' based on NCS. We did not have enough "Halftones" so we
> > edited 8, 9 to be halftones and we tweaked the sizes but all in all it
> > works great! Joshua Modglin
>

[Anonymous]

I just included the ctb for the NDS. We actually use a modified
version. We do not use the printable colors. All of the colors print
black (except 250-255). Our xx7 plots at 0.002 which is different from
NDS. Also colors 8, 9 we have as 0.002 and 0.014. As a left over from
another office that I worked at we have pen 101 mapped to 0 screen to
provide a no plot color. As we have our lines set to merge we can't use
it as a wipeout, but there are times that you want information located
on the drawing that you don't want plotted but you do want associated
with particular layers (ie freeze and thaw with those layers).

Anyway the result is that we thought that the NDS was a place to start
and modified it as we needed.

Mike

Glenn White wrote:

> replied to you in customer files with another similar ctb - addresses the
> 250's (greys) a bit differently.
> being a long time user (my first AutoCAD ran with an amber screen), I am not
> as enthralled with multiple colors as some folks - I am a layer freak though
> (everything in its place and a place for everything, just don't go overboard
> with every itty-bitty piece of something).
>
> "Mike Sapp" wrote in message
> news:3C9FAAC8.3010805@integrarearch.com...
>
>>We also have adopted a modified version of the NDS color/line weight.
>>One of the issues that I see constantly being brought up is trying to
>>make the line weights match the colors on screen, the brightest on
>>screen being the heaviest line weight. The problem with this concept is
>>that each person sees colors differently. Some are colorblind. I have
>>worked in several offices, some which use color brightness as the guide
>>and some that use placement on the acad diagram as the guide, and I have
>>found that the easiest to use is the ones that don't use the brightness.
>> As in the NDS red is the thinnest at 0.007. This is the first color
>>on the ACAD color dialog box. The line weights get thicker as you move
>>along down to white being the thickest. Left is thin, right is thick.
>>You have a relative position to use.
>>
>>The other thing that the NDS allows is the designation of color for
>>types of objects. The color sequence from 90-99 could be for doors,
>>with a full line weight range. The color sequence from 130-139 could
>>be for glazing with a full line weight range. The sequence from 190-199
>>could be for walls. etc. etc.
>>
>>This is actually quite an intuitive system. The higher the last digit,
>>the heavier the line.
>>
>>We too have added a thinner line weight as well. We changed the xx7
>>colors to be 0.002 for those times we want really thin.
>>
>>I have placed a file in the CF (Subject: NDS pen map) that has a dwg the
>>shows the colors and plots the thickness. There is a ctb file NDS.ctb
>>that is associated. There is also a layout on the drawing that plots
>>the AIA layers that come with Architectural Desktop.
>>
>>Sorry for the lecture.
>>
>>Mike Sapp
>>Integrare Architecture
>>Eugene OR, 97401
>>
>>
>>
>>jmodglin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I work for a Civil Engineering firm and we just recently implemented a
>>>new 'Pen Map' based on NCS. We did not have enough "Halftones" so we
>>>edited 8, 9 to be halftones and we tweaked the sizes but all in all it
>>>works great! Joshua Modglin
>>>
>
>

[Anonymous]

I think "modified" is the key - I don't know anyone who seems to like
anything "out of the box", because of legacy use, habit, whatever.
one of the reasons I like layer translator - with the great number of
consultants we deal with it suits us better to let them do what is
comfortable for them and make layer/color/pen changes in one fell swoop
after the fact. in the end, everyone is happy.

"Mike Sapp" wrote in message
news:3CA0B0B7.7000406@integrarearch.com...
> I just included the ctb for the NDS. We actually use a modified
> version. We do not use the printable colors. All of the colors print
> black (except 250-255). Our xx7 plots at 0.002 which is different from
> NDS. Also colors 8, 9 we have as 0.002 and 0.014. As a left over from
> another office that I worked at we have pen 101 mapped to 0 screen to
> provide a no plot color. As we have our lines set to merge we can't use
> it as a wipeout, but there are times that you want information located
> on the drawing that you don't want plotted but you do want associated
> with particular layers (ie freeze and thaw with those layers).
>
> Anyway the result is that we thought that the NDS was a place to start
> and modified it as we needed.
>
> Mike
>

[Anonymous]

Mike,

>The other thing that the NDS allows is the designation of color for
>types of objects. The color sequence from 90-99 could be for doors,
>with a full line weight range. The color sequence from 130-139 could
>be for glazing with a full line weight range. The sequence from 190-199
>could be for walls. etc. etc.

I'm not quite following you when you say "NDS allows is the
designation fo color for types of objects". NDS is a chart of color
numbers that map to lineweights. As far as I've seen, there isn't any
explanatory or tuturial material that goes along with the standard
that says anything about objects in autocad or microstation or other
cad programs. So... is it a correct to assume that you or your
company adopted the NCS Tri-Service Plotting Guidelines portion of
NCS2 and added a "scheme" whereby sequences of numbers equate to
objects in Adt?

Tom

Thomas E. Momeyer, AIA, CCS

[Anonymous]

There is a pattern to the color/lineweight mapping. For colors 10-249
the lineweights go from light for color xx0 to really heavy for color
xx9. Each of these color groups (i.e. 90-99, 150-159, etc.) is one
color with varying lightness/darkness (see colorwh.dwg in your
acad/sample directory). These color groups could be assigned to types
of objects or AIA major groups in layering. This is a possibility. You
are right it is not discussed in the NDS. I meant that this system
would make this approach possible, not that NDS specifically addresses
this idea. The firm that I work for have adopted a modified version of
the NDS Plotting guidelines. We haven't gone so far as to prescribe the
colors for the major groups though I foresee this as a possibility. We
are only a four person firm at this time.

I mentioned this as this would give a visual indication on screen to
which group the line belongs to. An example could be, if you see a
purple line (color group 190-199) on the screen you know it would be
part of the ceiling group. If you see a lemon color (color group 50-59)
you would know that it is part of the wall group.

I do believe in the concept "use what works best for you". We recently
upgraded to ADT 3.3 from R14 and a few people are learning paper space
for the first time. Since ADT will sort of force a change in how we
deal with the issue standards we looked at the lineweight issue. I
became aware when researching the standards topic that a significant
number of public entities were requiring the use of the NDS standards
and that if we get into the situation we would be farther ahead to have
already adopted something close to it. The transition is a headache though.

Mike



Tom Momeyer wrote:

> Mike,
>
>
>>The other thing that the NDS allows is the designation of color for
>>types of objects. The color sequence from 90-99 could be for doors,
>>with a full line weight range. The color sequence from 130-139 could
>>be for glazing with a full line weight range. The sequence from 190-199
>>could be for walls. etc. etc.
>>
>
> I'm not quite following you when you say "NDS allows is the
> designation fo color for types of objects". NDS is a chart of color
> numbers that map to lineweights. As far as I've seen, there isn't any
> explanatory or tuturial material that goes along with the standard
> that says anything about objects in autocad or microstation or other
> cad programs. So... is it a correct to assume that you or your
> company adopted the NCS Tri-Service Plotting Guidelines portion of
> NCS2 and added a "scheme" whereby sequences of numbers equate to
> objects in Adt?
>
> Tom
>
> Thomas E. Momeyer, AIA, CCS
>