CAD Managers

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*Wanderer
Message 51 of 83 (1,920 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 09:03 AM in reply to: sbsaint
Heh... When I was at AU this year, if I'd had a nickel for every time I
heard someone say 'the owner won't/can't/isn't planning on/ do anything
with the model'... well, I'd probably be able to pay to attend next
year's AU. There are a lot of places where that's true, I'm sure, but,
it's a blanket statement, and I know a handful of FM's in the larger
facilities who also took exception to the comments (also, we didn't
understand why owners would ask for BIM/IPD if they weren't going to do
anything with it? ~shrug~)

Along with other places, I'm starting to require Revit deliverables on
my larger projects (although I'm dictating from the occupant/maint end,
the project management is handled by our corporate overlords). I
recently sat down with some local CAD/BIM Managers for an informal
post-AU chat, and there were some... concerns/critiques about owners and
models, etc. it basically boiled down to the management not being
specific enough to detail who handles what and when.

The theme reoccurred throughout the conversation, so, I asked if I, as
the owner, should get more involved throughout in the process instead of
just at the end, so I could definitively say.... who does what and when,
instead of having it be a constant question causing conflicts later.
~crickets~

:-D
So, it's going to take a few of these projects to really see the change
in process that we need to and for me to adjust my expectations and keep
them realistic, to give the support we need to to help different
companies work together, when they're used to interfacing only briefly.
Most of the companies who do work for us are long-term partners though,
so I know we'll be able to work the kinks out, as long as we keep the
lines of communication open.

I've been collecting links to similar documents for some time, they
can be found in the following post:
http://mistressofthedorkness.blogspot.com/2009/07/revit-standards-get...

plus some other links I haven't added to the post yet:
http://doa.wi.gov/dsf/masterspec_view_new.asp?catid=61&locid=4
http://www.tfc.state.tx.us/communities/facilities/prog/construct/form...
http://www.sdccdprops-n.com/BUILDING%20STANDARDS/Forms/AllItems.aspx
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/cic/BIMEx/download.aspx
http://aecuk.wordpress.com/
http://www.viewbyview.com/html/bim_guidelines.html
http://www.indiana.edu/~uao/iubim.html

Enjoyed your posts, thanks.

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 10:38 AM, Doug Bowers wrote:
There is also the argument that good software
> resources may not be currently available to take advantage of the BIM file
> or that the owner has the capability of doing anything with the file.

>
>
>
> "cparvez" wrote in message news:6368585@discussion.autodesk.com...
> There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and
> AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent
> Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have to
> be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it all
> the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we talk
> about BIM as anything but a future goal.
*Doug Bowers
Message 52 of 83 (1,920 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 09:33 AM in reply to: sbsaint
Melanie,

Good post from an end user perspective. I maintain that we will continue to
see more clients like yourself and more expectations from BIM as we move
along.

You have good comments in relation to getting everyone on the same team and
going the same direction. While there has been some of this done with CAD,
it will be even more important with BIM. Since the client is the one that
will use the model in the end, I see the client driving the model standards
more and more and that E202 document will likely be more driven by the
client than the architect. That will scare the architect and other members
of the design team as it really affects the productivity and requirements of
the design team if the BIM standards are not what they are accustomed to
providing. It does require that everyone get involved and on the same page
at the very beginning of a project and know exactly what is expected of
them. That is something that a 3rd party consultant can help with as they
can be an unbiased mediator between all of the team members.

Doug
www.dougbowersconsulting.com
blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com



"Wanderer" wrote in message
news:6368661@discussion.autodesk.com...
Heh... When I was at AU this year, if I'd had a nickel for every time I
heard someone say 'the owner won't/can't/isn't planning on/ do anything
with the model'... well, I'd probably be able to pay to attend next
year's AU. There are a lot of places where that's true, I'm sure, but,
it's a blanket statement, and I know a handful of FM's in the larger
facilities who also took exception to the comments (also, we didn't
understand why owners would ask for BIM/IPD if they weren't going to do
anything with it? ~shrug~)

Along with other places, I'm starting to require Revit deliverables on
my larger projects (although I'm dictating from the occupant/maint end,
the project management is handled by our corporate overlords). I
recently sat down with some local CAD/BIM Managers for an informal
post-AU chat, and there were some... concerns/critiques about owners and
models, etc. it basically boiled down to the management not being
specific enough to detail who handles what and when.

The theme reoccurred throughout the conversation, so, I asked if I, as
the owner, should get more involved throughout in the process instead of
just at the end, so I could definitively say.... who does what and when,
instead of having it be a constant question causing conflicts later.
~crickets~

:-D
So, it's going to take a few of these projects to really see the change
in process that we need to and for me to adjust my expectations and keep
them realistic, to give the support we need to to help different
companies work together, when they're used to interfacing only briefly.
Most of the companies who do work for us are long-term partners though,
so I know we'll be able to work the kinks out, as long as we keep the
lines of communication open.

I've been collecting links to similar documents for some time, they
can be found in the following post:
http://mistressofthedorkness.blogspot.com/2009/07/revit-standards-get...

plus some other links I haven't added to the post yet:
http://doa.wi.gov/dsf/masterspec_view_new.asp?catid=61&locid=4
http://www.tfc.state.tx.us/communities/facilities/prog/construct/form...
http://www.sdccdprops-n.com/BUILDING%20STANDARDS/Forms/AllItems.aspx
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/cic/BIMEx/download.aspx
http://aecuk.wordpress.com/
http://www.viewbyview.com/html/bim_guidelines.html
http://www.indiana.edu/~uao/iubim.html

Enjoyed your posts, thanks.

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 10:38 AM, Doug Bowers wrote:
There is also the argument that good software
> resources may not be currently available to take advantage of the BIM file
> or that the owner has the capability of doing anything with the file.

>
>
>
> "cparvez" wrote in message news:6368585@discussion.autodesk.com...
> There are several other BIM softwares including AutoCAD Architecture and
> AutoCAD MEP. I would put Revit solidly in the DIM camp (Design Intent
> Modeling). If you make any model truely a BIM model first it would have
> to
> be an as built and since it very rarely happens that the model makes it
> all
> the way through construction and into as builts... I don't know why we
> talk
> about BIM as anything but a future goal.
Distinguished Contributor
paul.ashley
Posts: 597
Registered: ‎10-20-2003
Message 53 of 83 (1,920 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 09:41 AM in reply to: sbsaint
Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an exception based on future financial considerations.
*Wanderer
Message 54 of 83 (1,921 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 09:52 AM in reply to: sbsaint
You make some good points there.


I must note that, most of the providers I've talked to so far, don't
have any Revit standards in place yet.
It may be the case that the owner and consultants work together to
develop something that works for a fairly wide audience, OR something
like the NBIMS could be the solution... or it could end up turning out
exactly like the perpetual CAD standards discussion.

Who knows.

I'll admit that it's a hard thing to get my head around.
With my CAD Standards, I've got a simple 7 page document with a
checklist of basic quality control items to go through. Nothing I
require conflicts with the National CAD Standard, and most of the things
that consultants care about with regard to the appearance of their
printed construction documentation isn't important to me.

The BIM thing is quite a bit harder, because I'm not going to be
specifying 'hey, use your osnaps and make sure you label your pipes on
aia layer xx', I'm going to be saying 'hey, electrical contractor, you
need to model up to this point, then the Mechanical guy models the
rest'... it's a completely different world.


Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com



On 4/7/2010 11:41 AM, paul.ashley@us.mcd.com wrote:
> Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an exception based on future financial considerations.
Distinguished Contributor
paul.ashley
Posts: 597
Registered: ‎10-20-2003
Message 55 of 83 (1,924 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 10:01 AM in reply to: sbsaint
Melanie, I'm in both the owner and architect positions but we also farm out work. Are you doing FM work within a company or as a service to many companies? In whatever rold, are you specifying standards for existing buildings, new buildings, or both?
*Doug Bowers
Message 56 of 83 (1,924 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 10:02 AM in reply to: sbsaint
I agree with your statements. Depending on the requirements, an architect
or other member of the design team may need to walk away from a project.
Reasonable expectations need to be part of the BIM standards and E202, on
the part of everyone. The owner must realize that the more expectations
that are placed on the design team and/or the construction team, the more
the project will cost. The ROI on that extra cost must be analyzed. Having
more information in the model requires more work, and someone has to incur
the cost (whether through paying more by the client or more time involved by
the designers). I am afraid that without good communication at the
beginning of a project, we will see some small design firms losing too much
money on a high demand BIM project and not be able to remain in business.

If a client does not have BIM standards in place, that is a good opportunity
for somebody (probably an Architect) to work with them on setting up some
standards.

Doug
www.dougbowersconsulting.com
blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com


wrote in message
news:6368743@discussion.autodesk.com...
Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with
multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer
would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only
way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information
your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client
wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an
exception based on future financial considerations.
*Wanderer
Message 57 of 83 (1,925 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 10:22 AM in reply to: sbsaint
I've heard that statement a few times... sure, some of the bean counters
be surprised by an increase in cost, but, bidding is bidding... we send
it out for bid, if we don't like what we get back, we adjust our
requirements or something to fit our budget...
Obviously, we're concerned about ROI, but, that's not new to BIM, it
goes hand in hand with every single project we send out.

As long as the contracts are clear, I really don't want anyone worrying
about my budget except me. (heh... 'as long as the contracts are clear'
that makes me giggle, I managed to say it with a straight face though...
obviously it's something we'll all need to stay on top of)

On 4/7/2010 12:02 PM, Doug Bowers wrote:
> I agree with your statements. Depending on the requirements, an architect
> or other member of the design team may need to walk away from a project.
> Reasonable expectations need to be part of the BIM standards and E202, on
> the part of everyone. The owner must realize that the more expectations
> that are placed on the design team and/or the construction team, the more
> the project will cost. The ROI on that extra cost must be analyzed. Having
> more information in the model requires more work, and someone has to incur
> the cost (whether through paying more by the client or more time involved by
> the designers). I am afraid that without good communication at the
> beginning of a project, we will see some small design firms losing too much
> money on a high demand BIM project and not be able to remain in business.
>
> If a client does not have BIM standards in place, that is a good opportunity
> for somebody (probably an Architect) to work with them on setting up some
> standards.
>
> Doug
> www.dougbowersconsulting.com
> blog: http://aectechtalk.wordpress.com
>
>
> wrote in message
> news:6368743@discussion.autodesk.com...
> Given how difficult it would be for an provider to survive financially with
> multiple BIM standards from multiple clients, I would think the designer
> would need to be proactive in controlling those standards. Perhaps the only
> way to do it would be to determine the highest level of model information
> your firm can reasonably supply and use that for all clients. If a client
> wants more, you'd either have to walk away from the project or make an
> exception based on future financial considerations.
*Wanderer
Message 58 of 83 (1,930 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 10:27 AM in reply to: sbsaint
Paul,

I work for a facility, in the Engineering staff of a 90 year old hospital.
The only all-BIM project going on at the moment on my campus is an
entirely new building. (although I'm trying to keep in touch with the
contractors that had been working on our first two "IPD" (chuckle)
projects for the entire Health System (aka, my corporate overlords),
they've been facing some challenges because our corporate staff don't
really have a BIM specialist on staff to oversee and spec and settle
disputes, etc).

We're going to be knocking down more buildings to replace in the
not-too-distant future as well. But, the work will eventually reach into
existing buildings (I'm working on that myself at this point, hopefully
I'll be able to farm out some of it, maybe indenture some interns, etc.
it's a long road ahead, but, I'm at least getting started, and that's
overdue, imho).

Have you done much BIM work in existing buildings? I'd be interested in
hearing about your experiences if you have. What could the occupant do
to make your job easier?

Melanie Perry
***not all who wander are lost***
http://augi.com/autocad
http://MistressOfTheDorkness.blogspot.com

On 4/7/2010 12:01 PM, paul.ashley@us.mcd.com wrote:
> Melanie, I'm in both the owner and architect positions but we also farm out work. Are you doing FM work within a company or as a service to many companies? In whatever role, are you specifying standards for existing buildings, new buildings, or both?
Distinguished Contributor
paul.ashley
Posts: 597
Registered: ‎10-20-2003
Message 59 of 83 (1,931 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 11:29 AM in reply to: sbsaint
So as not to hijack the thread, I sent you an email.
Distinguished Contributor
Matasovsky
Posts: 335
Registered: ‎06-25-2003
Message 60 of 83 (1,931 Views)

Re: I hate Revit

04-07-2010 11:43 AM in reply to: sbsaint
I'll be happy to learn Revit on my own if it means living on a South Pacific island.
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