How would you handle this???

[Anonymous]

I have recently gotten into a scuffle with the Engineering Department Head
and I would like your people's opinion on how I should handle this in the
future.

Here's the low down:

I was recently asked to draw up a prelim conduit riser and electrical box
placement for a room. Easy, right? Nope, think again.

The owner forgot to include the xrefs with the existing electrical
information, and the architectural information. All I had was a furniture
plan.

Needless to say I protested that too little information was included and I
would need the appropriate xrefs before I could continue. His response was
"well just draw it and I will give you that stuff later". We bantered back
and forth, and I even volunteered to contact the owner and request the
xrefs. He still refused and told me to just draw it.

After which I said I would draw it, but would refuse to put my name on that
drawing. It simply wasn't anything I would want my name associated with.
This started another round of arguing to which he called me "difficult".

And to make a long story short here I am drawing something that I feel is
half a##ed and incomplete.

So my question is was I being difficult?
Would any of you handled that differently?
Am I taking *too* much pride in my drawings?
Is it a draftsman's job to reproduce what the engineer draws, or produce an
accurate drawing?

I eagerly await your answers.

Chris Ferris CTS

[Anonymous]

> So my question is was I being difficult?

Sounds to me like you were being more professional than the enginer was

> Would any of you handled that differently?

Doubt it.

> Am I taking *too* much pride in my drawings?

No.

> Is it a draftsman's job to reproduce what the engineer draws, or produce
an
> accurate drawing?

Produce what the engineer draws *with accuracy*. The engineer has to seal
and sign the plans - you don't. But, you need to be as accurate as you can
with the information provided. As a CAD Manager, I do not accept inaccurate
work from my staff, and I do not accept incomplete information from my
engineers and/or surveyors.

Tom B

[Anonymous]

You are definately not being 'difficult'. At the end of the day if the muck ever hits the fan you could be a scape goat.

Regards
Andrea

[Anonymous]

I didn't think I was, but it is good to hear
other's opinions.

And really I don't care about the scape goat thing,
I am young enough to recover if I get a blemish on my career.

What I am worried about is turning out information
I *know* is wrong.  As a draftsman, a professional, and an honest human
being (for the most part anyway <g>) I can't in good conscience produce
inaccurate information, when it is within my ability to produce an accurate
drawing.

And besides, what kind of example would I be
setting for those who look to me for supervision and guidance.  That it is
okay to draw something you know is wrong.  That you shouldn't connect with,
and be proud of, your work and just draw what is on the paper.  That
is not what I want to teach my people, EVER.

Well before I get too high on the soap box, I shall
leave it as is.

Thanks

Chris Ferris CTS

(P.S. Just out of curiosity, has anybody else run
into similar situations?)

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"Andrea_C" <
href="mailto:andrea.lythgoe@losp.com">andrea.lythgoe@losp.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f0dc345.1@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f0dc345.1@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

You
are definately not being 'difficult'. At the end of the day if the muck ever
hits the fan you could be a scape goat.

Regards
Andrea

[Anonymous]

You have to be careful.

1) Sometimes there is a "political" reason why you cannot get all of the
information at a given time, and you should go ahead and make the drawing
knowing you will change it in the future. It is probably alright to leave
off your name, but don't make a big deal out of it. If it's a "preliminary
drawing" just tell the Engineer that you forgot to put on your name and
you'll do it when the next revision is made.

2) Sometimes you are just dealing with someone who is too stressed-out to
deal with calling the Owner back and getting the information sent. You were
correct in asking for permission to do that yourself, but maybe you weren't
diplomatic enough with the Engineer, and the Engineer was offended and blew
you off. You might just refer back to 1).

3) Sometimes you are just dealing with a jerk. I have been fortunate in my
career in that I didn't have to go as far as this option, but my brother has
had three times where he had to go to this extreme: Stand up for your
principles, but be ready to Quit or Be Fired. My brother was fired once for
correcting the foreman, fired once for correcting the boss, and quit once
because he was ordered to do shoddy work (he is a machinist).

Although option 3) is the most drastic, if the principles involved are great
enough it is worth pursuing. My brother retained his integrity and in fact,
the second time he was fired the boss called him back after a few months,
hired him back at a better salary, and instead of always criticizing and
asking him to expedite and cut corners on jobs, he was treated as the shop
expert, and set up as the example to follow!

Good luck in dealing with jerks, 'cause you'll meet a lot of them.

[Anonymous]

A view from the other side - whether you were being difficult or just
professional might depend on how "preliminary" this drawing was supposed to
be. Maybe the engineer simply needed a quick concept-type drawing to show a
client, therefore your response seemed like overkill. Or maybe the engineer
just didn't get it and you were correct in objecting to drawing something
that will cause headaches for more people down the road. It depends on the
purpose of the drawing. Maybe the solution is to draw it based on the
information you have available and put a large note in bold letters stating
that it is preliminary. Make the drawing suit the purpose.

[Anonymous]

I understand how strong you feel about the work being accurate. After reading other advice in this thread I suppose it does depend on the purpose of the drawing and on the person who is asking you to create the drawing. If the person is a 'jerk' then I don't think wanting more information is too much to ask. A few years ago I had to create drawings for some of these jerks and when the drawings came back to me along with a telling off from my boss I gradually learnt who to trust and who not to trust. The colleagues that I draw for now are great and sometimes I may not be given all the base information to do a preliminary drawing but I trust our guys know what they are doing and there are never any comebacks. In certain instances I will put a disclaimer on the drawing or type'Draft' in big letters.

There is the time element that has to be considered and if the drawing is a quick idea or example then it's not feasable at such early stages to always go to such great lengths to have every detail especially if they are only looking at a particular bit of the drawing the rest to them is superfluous.

[Anonymous]

I too have been faced with this little problem a few times in my career. The solution is simple, either put the Engineering Department Head's intials in the "Drawn by" box, or the intials of the company you work for.

[Anonymous]

Dear Chris,
I know the problem. In one place I worked, I had to start a drawing with a
large "THIS IS NOT YET A COMPLETE DRAWING" banner at the bottom so the
department head would not embarrass my supervisor by showing a preliminary
half-evolved design as a completed design stage during status meetings.
Marshall Davidson


Chris Ferris wrote:

> I have recently gotten into a scuffle with the Engineering Department Head
> and I would like your people's opinion on how I should handle this in the
> future.
>
> Here's the low down:
>
> I was recently asked to draw up a prelim conduit riser and electrical box
> placement for a room. Easy, right? Nope, think again.
>
> The owner forgot to include the xrefs with the existing electrical
> information, and the architectural information. All I had was a furniture
> plan.
>
> Needless to say I protested that too little information was included and I
> would need the appropriate xrefs before I could continue. His response was
> "well just draw it and I will give you that stuff later". We bantered back
> and forth, and I even volunteered to contact the owner and request the
> xrefs. He still refused and told me to just draw it.
>
> After which I said I would draw it, but would refuse to put my name on that
> drawing. It simply wasn't anything I would want my name associated with.
> This started another round of arguing to which he called me "difficult".
>
> And to make a long story short here I am drawing something that I feel is
> half a##ed and incomplete.
>
> So my question is was I being difficult?
> Would any of you handled that differently?
> Am I taking *too* much pride in my drawings?
> Is it a draftsman's job to reproduce what the engineer draws, or produce an
> accurate drawing?
>
> I eagerly await your answers.
>
> Chris Ferris CTS

[Anonymous]

A very valid point. I have prepared prelim drawings for a "proof of
concept". And I have never had a problem with that. But this was going out
to the client and an electrician for pricing. That is where I really took
umbrage.

An incomplete, and inaccurate drawing results in incomplete and inaccurate
pricing. And I refuse to be part of that kind of process. There is no way
I am going to put my name on a fiasco like that. Nore would I want any of
my people to put there names on it. Hell, I don't want to the company name
on it (I was wise enough *not* to say that.).

But thanks for all the input. I am definitely learning something from this.

CMF

"dirt-girl" wrote in message
news:FF4FE1C2E05471583F2B96C8AF38977D@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> A view from the other side - whether you were being difficult or just
> professional might depend on how "preliminary" this drawing was supposed
to
> be. Maybe the engineer simply needed a quick concept-type drawing to show
a
> client, therefore your response seemed like overkill. Or maybe the
engineer
> just didn't get it and you were correct in objecting to drawing something
> that will cause headaches for more people down the road. It depends on the
> purpose of the drawing. Maybe the solution is to draw it based on the
> information you have available and put a large note in bold letters
stating
> that it is preliminary. Make the drawing suit the purpose.
>
>

[Anonymous]

I get it all the time. A lack of information. I would say you should draw in
something, don't sign your name and when he gets the correct information to
you you can swap the correct xref for your temporary one. Also, try not to
spend too much time getting it right as your boss told you he would be
getting the correct xrefs eventually.

At the end of the day he probably is a bit stressed out and finds this
detail less important than the overall project. Just don't waste time on it
and get on with something else. If it is possible just represent the detail
as a symbol and make a note to say more detailed drawings of this symbol
exist elsewhere.

Best of luck,
Chris Kelly

[Anonymous]

First, let me say I admire your desire to provide a professional product. That said I feel I must say that ultimately it is (or so it appears in this case) your job to provide graphics to the engineering department. While it is best if all the pieces are in place, in reality that's not always the case. And in my 17 years in the drafting/design business I have found that the best drafters/designers are those that, when given lemons, make lemonade. Viewing this thread from the standpoint of a supervisor/manager, I would have much rather have seen you politely ask if there was a possibility of obtaining the xrefs and if not, then simply say; "No problem, I'll handle it."