how many cadd techs per engineers

[Anonymous]

what the ratio of cadd tech to engineers in your office,
cadd time = 20% of the total project therefor one cadd tech for 4
engineers.



what is everyone else doing??

[Anonymous]

Bottomline, it boils down to a balance of people's time and skills, it will
be different for every office. There are engineers in our office that
should not even have AutoCAD installed on their PC, but they do for viewing
purposes.

There are those that could draft circles around the drafters and instead of
taking 3-4 hours to put a red pen to paper, they could probably draft up the
design themselves in about 1-2 hours.

If anyone looks at project costing for a job, you will find more money made
with an engineer that can draft their own work at an efficient pace. Just
do the math:

1-2 hours @ $85/hr. = $170.

3-4 hours @ $85/hr. + 2-3 hours drafting @ $35/hr. = $275.

But this is only holds water depending on project and the talent of the
people involved.

However, another valid point is made that if the engineering and drafting
are affectively segregated from each other, then an engineer can begin work
on the next project while a drafter pumps the redlines. Therefore
increasing the flow of work through the office. It's all a matter of volume
and limiting the number of bottlenecks.

Every office and process is unique. It's easy to say that the most cost
effective employee would be an engineer that happened to have outstanding
drafting skills, making drafters obsolete. But those people aren't too
common, particularly when CAD isn't a required course cirriculum and it's
based on the job experience.

[Anonymous]

I guess I wonder why any company would hire an engineer that isn't
proficient in CAD and it's engineering programs. Unless, they were a hired
as a Senior Project Manager. These companies that have so many drafters
obviously do not use programs like LDD, if they did 80% of the drafting is
done for you, the rest is just adjusting text so it's ledgible. You can not
give that work to a drafter because you have to be an engineer in order to
do your design with the software.

[Anonymous]

>why any company would hire an engineer that isn't
proficient in CAD

because they are older, with years of experience?... i dunno...

>f they did 80% of the drafting is done for you

randot alert?

>you have to be an engineer in order to do your design with the software.

so only truck drivers can drive trucks?...


--
attitudes are contagious... mine could kill you...... 🙂

[Anonymous]

I don't think an engineer should be required to be proficient in CAD - yet.
If that were the case, then it'd be part of course cirriculum at colleges
and universities. It hasn't gotten to that point - yet.

An engineer does what an engineer does, crunch the numbers to make sure the
building will stand up, the bridge won't fall, the power gets where it needs
to go, etc.

A drafter puts those thoughts and ideas onto paper, somewhere along the
line, a good drafter can become worth their weight in gold as they begin to
pickup on the design standards of an office. They begin to see patterns and
know certain things need to be shown a certain way. So no matter how sloppy
redlines may be, you'll get a well done drawing back.

You either need to be open minded enough to view it from another angle, or
have been in a different environment to appreciate it from the 'other'
perspective.

Even with something like LDD, an engineer is a fool to believe that the
software makes his design sound. A good engineer should double and triple
check the stuff, whether he drafts it himself or not. He's setting himself
up for a hurting allowing for a false sense of 'security' thinking that a
design is done better or faster just because he drafted it himself. I've
learned this lesson a couple times myself.

"Jay B." wrote in message
news:C319D6E6852F32FA0488C5FC35CB4954@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I guess I wonder why any company would hire an engineer that isn't
> proficient in CAD and it's engineering programs. Unless, they were a hired
> as a Senior Project Manager. These companies that have so many drafters
> obviously do not use programs like LDD, if they did 80% of the drafting is
> done for you, the rest is just adjusting text so it's ledgible. You can
not
> give that work to a drafter because you have to be an engineer in order to
> do your design with the software.
>
>

[Anonymous]

Some people in here aren't very pollite. You took everything out of
context, why even bother to reply? Of course only truck drivers can drive
trucks. DUH!

[Anonymous]

The problem with engineers doing their own drafting is that if you accept
the premiss that it is 80% design and 20% drafting, while they are
designing, they are not drafting so there is no progress on the drawings.

If you can afford to wait until all the design is done befor doing the
drafting, then more power to you.
Plumbing and HVAC don't work that way. There is plenty of "Non-Engineering"
type drafting to do on a project that can be done while the "system design"
progresses. The other thing is that AutoCAD on its own, doesn't support
designing mechanical systems very efficently. It is much easier and faster
to layout systems schematically from hard copy then spend time zooming and
panning around the drawing in AutoCAD.

Dave Alexander

"Jason Wilder" wrote in message
news:B470D618955D249C3BF97E5935722E08@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I don't think an engineer should be required to be proficient in CAD -
yet.
> If that were the case, then it'd be part of course cirriculum at colleges
> and universities. It hasn't gotten to that point - yet.
>
> An engineer does what an engineer does, crunch the numbers to make sure
the
> building will stand up, the bridge won't fall, the power gets where it
needs
> to go, etc.
>
> A drafter puts those thoughts and ideas onto paper, somewhere along the
> line, a good drafter can become worth their weight in gold as they begin
to
> pickup on the design standards of an office. They begin to see patterns
and
> know certain things need to be shown a certain way. So no matter how
sloppy
> redlines may be, you'll get a well done drawing back.
>
> You either need to be open minded enough to view it from another angle, or
> have been in a different environment to appreciate it from the 'other'
> perspective.
>
> Even with something like LDD, an engineer is a fool to believe that the
> software makes his design sound. A good engineer should double and triple
> check the stuff, whether he drafts it himself or not. He's setting
himself
> up for a hurting allowing for a false sense of 'security' thinking that a
> design is done better or faster just because he drafted it himself. I've
> learned this lesson a couple times myself.
>
> "Jay B." wrote in message
> news:C319D6E6852F32FA0488C5FC35CB4954@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > I guess I wonder why any company would hire an engineer that isn't
> > proficient in CAD and it's engineering programs. Unless, they were a
hired
> > as a Senior Project Manager. These companies that have so many drafters
> > obviously do not use programs like LDD, if they did 80% of the drafting
is
> > done for you, the rest is just adjusting text so it's ledgible. You can
> not
> > give that work to a drafter because you have to be an engineer in order
to
> > do your design with the software.
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

I agree. I didn't mean to infer that the design be done before drafting
starts, but a good drafter could put a great deal of the 'non-engineering'
elements on a drawing while an engineer crunches the important info.

The manner in which we 'try' to get work to flow in our office is such that
an engineer runs some calculations, specs equipment, etc. Around the time
he's done, a drafter should have a project setup and drafted with basic
items that the engineer can review and redline a drawing, then hand it back
to the drafter and it gets one last review before going out the door.
Doesn't always flow quite this way, but it's the 'ideal'.

"Dave Alexander" wrote in message
news:0860DC864BD4FB74524C8EF270B6BF3F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> The problem with engineers doing their own drafting is that if you accept
> the premiss that it is 80% design and 20% drafting, while they are
> designing, they are not drafting so there is no progress on the drawings.
>
> If you can afford to wait until all the design is done befor doing the
> drafting, then more power to you.
> Plumbing and HVAC don't work that way. There is plenty of
"Non-Engineering"
> type drafting to do on a project that can be done while the "system
design"
> progresses. The other thing is that AutoCAD on its own, doesn't support
> designing mechanical systems very efficently. It is much easier and faster
> to layout systems schematically from hard copy then spend time zooming and
> panning around the drawing in AutoCAD.
>
> Dave Alexander

[Anonymous]

That's pretty much the way we work as well. With more experienced "drafters
(techs)" the engineer need only layout the system in a more general nature
and leave the "nitty gritty" to the be done by the drafter.

Dave Alexander



"Jason Wilder" wrote in message
news:86C826E32325B17CE95581AFB96272C6@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I agree. I didn't mean to infer that the design be done before drafting
> starts, but a good drafter could put a great deal of the 'non-engineering'
> elements on a drawing while an engineer crunches the important info.
>
> The manner in which we 'try' to get work to flow in our office is such
that
> an engineer runs some calculations, specs equipment, etc. Around the time
> he's done, a drafter should have a project setup and drafted with basic
> items that the engineer can review and redline a drawing, then hand it
back
> to the drafter and it gets one last review before going out the door.
> Doesn't always flow quite this way, but it's the 'ideal'.
>
>

[Anonymous]

you said:
"You can not give that work to a drafter because you have to be an engineer
in order to do your design with the software."

i'm not an engineer, but i do civil design... not to the extent of
engineers, but the "easy" stuff they dont/shouldn't spend time on i do....

>Some people in here aren't very pollite

no kidding... 😐


--
attitudes are contagious... mine could kill you...... 🙂

[Anonymous]

Randy?

"Jay B." wrote in message
These companies that have so many drafters
> obviously do not use programs like LDD, if they did 80% of the drafting is
> done for you, the rest is just adjusting text so it's ledgible.

[old-cadaver]

>>I guess I wonder why any company would hire an engineer that isn't proficient in CAD and it's engineering programs. <<

It's about billing rates. A good designer (billed at $45-$65) can do much (if not all) of the preliminary design work. That'll leave an engineer (billed at $60-$80) with review and approval. It's cheaper to the client. You'll have 3-4 designers (at a lower rate) working for 1-2 Enginees (at the higher rate).

[old-cadaver]

>>That's pretty much the way we work as well. With more experienced "drafters (techs)" the engineer need only layout the system in a more general nature and leave the "nitty gritty" to the be done by the drafter.<<

Much of the time in our shop, the designers have enough experience in the disicpline to it all, and leave only review and approval to the engineer.

[Anonymous]

thats how it works in my shop...we a new designer
starts he must have another desinger review his work first..before it goes to
the engineer

Jaime

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"OLD-CADaver" <
href="mailto:rculp@chicagobridge.com">rculp@chicagobridge.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f17e7ae.50@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f17e7ae.50@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

>That's pretty much the way we work as well. With more
experienced "drafters (techs)" the engineer need only layout the system in a
more general nature and leave the "nitty gritty" to the be done by the
drafter.<<

Much of the time in our shop, the designers have enough experience in the
disicpline to it all, and leave only review and approval to the
engineer.

[Anonymous]

Wow, the subject changed in this thread!!
Engineers defending their jobs and tech's defending theirs.

I think a better definition of a "cadd tech" is lost here. A person
that does straight cadd work (ie, move text around, create titlesheets,
inserting std. details into a dwg are considered "cadd drafters" NOT cadd
technicians. If your proficient in your field and progressed to doing
designs, then "cadd tech" would be the term. (The Cadd Techs) are MOST
valuable to any firm!.
I was under the impression that someone can NOT be labeled "Engineer"
unless they had their registration. Our company (ENR500 firm) changed
titles for all employees. If you have a 4yr degree with or without EIT then
you are a Project Designer or Project Manager. If you have your PE, you can
be called an engineer. (you guessed it, EIT's and others are EQUAL)
Some States, like Texas, made it a State Law that its prohibited to call
one-self an engineer without a license.
This thread at ASCE is a good subject on the issue
http://www.asce.org/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=21&threadid=149

Most cadd tech's make more (or should) cash than an entry level engineer
with zero experience. I bet 90% of cadd techs could run circles around any
new grad. Myself, I have my degree, and EIT, but enjoy the work. Before
degree, it started with Leroy, Mylar, Stickybacks, Acad12/DCA, nightschool.
Not interested at all in Management, so I don't persu my PE. Who knows,
someday before I retire I might. Once you go management, you loose touch
with software and designing. Staying on top of the latest and greatest in
Autocad will be lost. (not that it has progressed since LDD2 anyway, but
thats our problem being consumers to the giant).

Anyway, this is my current thought on this subject, who knows. Its probably
the Atkins diet killing my braincells. gosh I want pasta!!





"KARL DETRICK" wrote in message
news:1C85D6CF32744E12ACDDC88D461469D9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> what the ratio of cadd tech to engineers in your office,
> cadd time = 20% of the total project therefor one cadd tech for 4
> engineers.
>
>
>
> what is everyone else doing??
>
>

[Anonymous]

I think the size of the company and the size of the project
has a lot to do with who does what. As well as the basic
setup of responsibilities within the company. On company I
worked for had engineers engineer, designers design,
drafters draft and so fourth. Eventually the designers were
doing the drafting by the nature of CAD. Now in all
fairness this was a very large company with a staff of 7000+
world wide working on large projects.
The responsibilities of the engineers didn't leave them much
time for CAD. The actual involvement varied from discipline
to discipline. The next company I was at was much smaller.
Some of the engineers used Cad to do sketchers, but when it
came to the day to day production of hundreds of drawings,
they couldn't come close to the "CAD GUYS" I guess this all
comes down to, practices vary widely based on size of
company, size of job being done, and company practices.

My 0.50 cents worth.

Pete

[Anonymous]

Karl hit the nail right on the head. EIT's as well as Engineering
Technicians
are most valuable. Sure we don't put together proposals to actually drum up
the work. But alot of engineers don't have the CADD management skills to
care how
to put together a plan set. I work in an office where we do mostly
DOT work and believe me when I say that the engineers don't have the time
or desire to know how to draft. All of the drafting is left to the EIT's and
the
CADD "Technicans" to do. We currently have 5 Engineers, out of which only
3 do actual design, 4 EIT's, 4 drafters, 1 bridge tech, and 2 Engineering
Technicans.
As for the CADD Drafters, they will always have a job. How many engineers
really
get a thrill out of doing their own tabulations and quantity sheets? or
drawing details?
It's like saying drafters never should have never been a position, what is
the difference
between doing layout on paper or in CADD? It's just gotten faster is all,
but what has
also gained momentum is the rate at which we can scrap a whole idea and
start out new.


As for billing rates I am a Senior CADD Designer with 9 years experience and
I bill
out at over $70.00 an hour, EIT's at $60.00 and hour and the engineers
billed out at
$70.00 to $120.00 an hour. With my overtime rate I make alot more than most
of the
ten year engineers out there. The attitude with this post was the same as
the first position
I held. " Your a CADD guy you draw pretty lines and circles. The EIT's get
to do the
design." What a crock, these EIT's not only don't have a clue how to design
out of
college, they also could'nt draw the pretty lines or circles. I doubt this
firm ever learned
their mistakes, but it was much to their loss, as I subsequently took a
design position
elsewhere.




"WU" wrote in message
news:E901AFB3B50DF46592731B20C0465D38@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> Wow, the subject changed in this thread!!
> Engineers defending their jobs and tech's defending theirs.
>
> I think a better definition of a "cadd tech" is lost here. A person
> that does straight cadd work (ie, move text around, create titlesheets,
> inserting std. details into a dwg are considered "cadd drafters" NOT cadd
> technicians. If your proficient in your field and progressed to doing
> designs, then "cadd tech" would be the term. (The Cadd Techs) are MOST
> valuable to any firm!.
> I was under the impression that someone can NOT be labeled "Engineer"
> unless they had their registration. Our company (ENR500 firm) changed
> titles for all employees. If you have a 4yr degree with or without EIT
then
> you are a Project Designer or Project Manager. If you have your PE, you
can
> be called an engineer. (you guessed it, EIT's and others are EQUAL)
> Some States, like Texas, made it a State Law that its prohibited to call
> one-self an engineer without a license.
> This thread at ASCE is a good subject on the issue
> http://www.asce.org/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=21&threadid=149
>
> Most cadd tech's make more (or should) cash than an entry level engineer
> with zero experience. I bet 90% of cadd techs could run circles around
any
> new grad. Myself, I have my degree, and EIT, but enjoy the work. Before
> degree, it started with Leroy, Mylar, Stickybacks, Acad12/DCA,
nightschool.
> Not interested at all in Management, so I don't persu my PE. Who knows,
> someday before I retire I might. Once you go management, you loose touch
> with software and designing. Staying on top of the latest and greatest in
> Autocad will be lost. (not that it has progressed since LDD2 anyway, but
> thats our problem being consumers to the giant).
>
> Anyway, this is my current thought on this subject, who knows. Its
probably
> the Atkins diet killing my braincells. gosh I want pasta!!
>
>
>
>
>
> "KARL DETRICK" wrote in message
> news:1C85D6CF32744E12ACDDC88D461469D9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > what the ratio of cadd tech to engineers in your office,
> > cadd time = 20% of the total project therefor one cadd tech for 4
> > engineers.
> >
> >
> >
> > what is everyone else doing??
> >
> >
>
>

[Anonymous]

Right on Kevin, but you never should have let it out of the
bag that we designers often make more than the engineers.


"Kevin" wrote in message
news:4A503E3DB4A404F8FA685243C095A89B@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
>
> Karl hit the nail right on the head. EIT's as well as
Engineering
> Technicians
> are most valuable. Sure we don't put together proposals to
actually drum up
> the work. But alot of engineers don't have the CADD
management skills to
> care how
> to put together a plan set. I work in an office where we
do mostly
> DOT work and believe me when I say that the engineers
don't have the time
> or desire to know how to draft. All of the drafting is
left to the EIT's and
> the
> CADD "Technicans" to do. We currently have 5 Engineers,
out of which only
> 3 do actual design, 4 EIT's, 4 drafters, 1 bridge tech,
and 2 Engineering
> Technicans.
> As for the CADD Drafters, they will always have a job. How
many engineers
> really
> get a thrill out of doing their own tabulations and
quantity sheets? or
> drawing details?
> It's like saying drafters never should have never been a
position, what is
> the difference
> between doing layout on paper or in CADD? It's just gotten
faster is all,
> but what has
> also gained momentum is the rate at which we can scrap a
whole idea and
> start out new.
>
>
> As for billing rates I am a Senior CADD Designer with 9
years experience and
> I bill
> out at over $70.00 an hour, EIT's at $60.00 and hour and
the engineers
> billed out at
> $70.00 to $120.00 an hour. With my overtime rate I make
alot more than most
> of the
> ten year engineers out there. The attitude with this post
was the same as
> the first position
> I held. " Your a CADD guy you draw pretty lines and
circles. The EIT's get
> to do the
> design." What a crock, these EIT's not only don't have a
clue how to design
> out of
> college, they also could'nt draw the pretty lines or
circles. I doubt this
> firm ever learned
> their mistakes, but it was much to their loss, as I
subsequently took a
> design position
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
>
> "WU" wrote in message
>
news:E901AFB3B50DF46592731B20C0465D38@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > Wow, the subject changed in this thread!!
> > Engineers defending their jobs and tech's defending
theirs.
> >
> > I think a better definition of a "cadd tech" is lost
here. A person
> > that does straight cadd work (ie, move text around,
create titlesheets,
> > inserting std. details into a dwg are considered "cadd
drafters" NOT cadd
> > technicians. If your proficient in your field and
progressed to doing
> > designs, then "cadd tech" would be the term. (The Cadd
Techs) are MOST
> > valuable to any firm!.
> > I was under the impression that someone can NOT be
labeled "Engineer"
> > unless they had their registration. Our company (ENR500
firm) changed
> > titles for all employees. If you have a 4yr degree with
or without EIT
> then
> > you are a Project Designer or Project Manager. If you
have your PE, you
> can
> > be called an engineer. (you guessed it, EIT's and
others are EQUAL)
> > Some States, like Texas, made it a State Law that its
prohibited to call
> > one-self an engineer without a license.
> > This thread at ASCE is a good subject on the issue
> >
http://www.asce.org/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=21&threadid=149
> >
> > Most cadd tech's make more (or should) cash than an
entry level engineer
> > with zero experience. I bet 90% of cadd techs could run
circles around
> any
> > new grad. Myself, I have my degree, and EIT, but enjoy
the work. Before
> > degree, it started with Leroy, Mylar, Stickybacks,
Acad12/DCA,
> nightschool.
> > Not interested at all in Management, so I don't persu my
PE. Who knows,
> > someday before I retire I might. Once you go
management, you loose touch
> > with software and designing. Staying on top of the
latest and greatest in
> > Autocad will be lost. (not that it has progressed since
LDD2 anyway, but
> > thats our problem being consumers to the giant).
> >
> > Anyway, this is my current thought on this subject, who
knows. Its
> probably
> > the Atkins diet killing my braincells. gosh I want
pasta!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "KARL DETRICK" wrote in message
> >
news:1C85D6CF32744E12ACDDC88D461469D9@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > > what the ratio of cadd tech to engineers in your
office,
> > > cadd time = 20% of the total project therefor one cadd
tech for 4
> > > engineers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > what is everyone else doing??
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[old-cadaver]

So, would you prefer paying $70-$120 an hour for filling out terminal schedules or $40 for a CAD drafter?

[Anonymous]

If the $70 an hour person can do it in one hour and
the $40 an hour person can do it in TWO hours the $70 an hour person just saved
you ten bucks.

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

"OLD-CADaver" <
href="mailto:rculp@chicagobridge.com">rculp@chicagobridge.com> wrote in
message
href="news:f17e7ae.56@WebX.maYIadrTaRb">news:f17e7ae.56@WebX.maYIadrTaRb...

So,
would you prefer paying $70-$120 an hour for filling out terminal schedules or
$40 for a CAD drafter?

[Anonymous]

Unless, of course the $40 /hour person does it in
1/2 hour.