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Message 1 of 79
rblalock
875 Views, 78 Replies

How do you work?

Not so long ago we worked as engineers/designers and draftsmen, later most draftsmen were replaced by engineers who used computers with CAD. Today there are CAD technicians, but the engineers still do a good bit of production work.

Do you guys still use the old school method of designer -> drafter/CAD monkey or does the designer do their actual drawings as well?

I can see in more creative roles where the designer would want to be the draftsman to the point where the roles are blurred and not really even applicable. However, in some production work you would employ the old school model for efficiency.

Being mostly involved in civil engineering (land development) what model do you use? There is some idea here to go back to old school but I'm not sure that is a viable alternative. Something that is driving this thought is the complexity of software...it takes so much time to learn and relearn as the software becomes more complicated but not easier to use. Lately we have been going through these yearly upgrades and it does not seem to be advantageous to the company.

Ideas/thoughts/rants?

- Richard
78 REPLIES 78
Message 41 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I prefer 'CAD technician' 😄


Melanie Perry
*not claiming to be a drafter*
***not all who wander are lost***
http://mistressofthedorkness.blogspot.com

Daniel J. Altamura wrote:
> I prefer "draftsperson." 😉
Message 42 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

...
I prefer "draftsperson." 😉
...

In Tijuana, we used to call ourselfs - 'Perros' 🙂

Yes, I was a production liner for to many years - still do some drafting -
but not as I used to.... from 1972 - to-date

Been here working in the US for the last 15+ years - but as a PM.
Message 43 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

dogs? lol

we generally prefer the term 'monkeys' 😜

Luis Esquivel wrote:
> ...
> I prefer "draftsperson." 😉
> ...
>
> In Tijuana, we used to call ourselfs - 'Perros' 🙂
>
> Yes, I was a production liner for to many years - still do some drafting -
> but not as I used to.... from 1972 - to-date
>
> Been here working in the US for the last 15+ years - but as a PM.
Message 44 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

But you're absolutely right Joshua, its a matter of --economics-- as the
fascists have corrupted legitimate credentialing to control who can and who
can not work. Its not unique to architects or engineers either. In Wisconsin
there are over 300 occupations that are now controlled by fascists.

Even painting fingernails without a license is now a felony and I'm not
being facetious.

<%= Clinton


"Joshua Tapp" wrote in message
news:5805080@discussion.autodesk.com...
Er....Mr. G, I think you're overlooking something here.

The people who are licensed are not only licensed, but some of the more
senior, or experienced staff. Senior staff naturally gets paid higher, so
the more day-to-day activities and meticulous tasks are then performed by
the junior staff, simply because they are cheaper.

I am in no way a senior-level person at my company, but I am licensed and
have ten years of experience beyond college. I profess to not know
everything, but I do earn more than the intern that works on my team. To
me, as a project architect/manager, that means that the duties I assign them
are the duties that perform multiple functions: a) teaches them and gives
them experience, b) keeps my billing rates down to a minimum, and c) helps
ensure the project goes smoother and cheaper, which helps out both me and my
intern at bonus time.

There are some elitists out there, but not everyone licensed is that way.
It's simply a matter of economics that the more junior staff does the bulk
of the busy work, and I'm marking up drawings, issuing proposals, and
jumping between projects.

--
Joshua Tapp

"clintonG" wrote in message
news:5804957@discussion.autodesk.com...
I think his point was perfectly clear. At least to me.

The architects and engineers are licensed and they do not want to
have to learn to use software themselves anymore because they are elitist
who think their license means they are the only ones that know how
to do linear algebraic calculations for example.

They who think of themselves as elitists do not want to work like
others. They want to issue orders and do the mindless work of redlining the
real work done by others who have worked harder to become smarter and more
efficient and have more talent and skills than the fascists.

The point is legitimate credentialing and how the work that has been
regulated can be done mose efficiently and profitably while
remaining subverted and corrupted . The point is what we as
Americans are going to do about allowing those who have
corrupted everything that once made this nation and its people what we once
were --or-- buy into their ca-ca about going back to the past to draft with
pencils and pens on paper because the facts are the licensed are
simply too stupid to be of any use anymore.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/


wrote in message news:5804014@discussion.autodesk.com...
Yup.

What's your point?

Message was edited by: Discussion Admin
Message 45 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

CAD technician, is the wrong word. I wish people would do away with that.
the name gives off an idea, that the person is every knowledgeable about technican things, esp in CAD.

and alot of the people thats in that title, are not. they skills in terms of using the program usually are limited.
Message 46 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I don't hate architects per se or anybody else for that matter Daniel. Its
the context by which they as a group of fascists (notably the A.I.A. and all
of its members) have corrupted legitimate credentialing and have literally
taken control of the law for their own corrupt purpose which has been to
determine who can and who can not work in America without being being
prosecuted as a felon for the egregious crime of drawing pictures used to
remodel or construct a building without their permission.

Your "20 years" implies you are older and have not been victimized as others
have as you likely were allowed to begin working before the fascists
implemented the Intern Development Program circa 1990 which now unlawfully
compels indentured servitude and is also used to violate other laws to
prevent "undesireables" from working. People with disabilities for example.
Older white males for example.

Finally, fascism is not unique to architecture. In Wisconsin for
example --as I often note-- there are now more than 300 occupations which
the fascists control. They have even made it a felony to paint fingernails
without a license.

<%= Clinton.

; "R.A." wrote in message
news:5805048@discussion.autodesk.com...
Umm... I'm a licensed architect, and am no fascist. I do all my own
designing and drafting. I work very hard at it, as do many other
architects. I have been using and customizing AutoCAD for 20 years, and can
run circles around any drafters I know. Why do you hate (or is it envy)
architects so much?
--
Daniel J. Altamura, R.A.
Altamura Architectural Consulting
and SoftWorx, Autodesk Authorized Developer
http://partnerproducts.autodesk.com/popups/company.asp?rdid=2139
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 47 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

ha, we were just talking bout this in the office. I am done with my IDP, but i need to send in the last report.

but where does all this money for all these outrageous dues go to, because it doesn't seem like it goes into the interest of architects or the profession.

AIA makes it seems like to be an architect u need to be part of that group. it fools alot of clients into thinking that, they do give u a free book each month though
Message 48 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I'd blame the people hiring them then, rather than doing away with the
title.

I like to think it reminds people that I'm not a pencil-pushing monkey,
and that I've had years of specialized training and experience in
operating and trouble-shooting highly specialized tools and that they
really don't know what the heck they're talking about so they should
just hush up and leave me alone to work my obscure magic.

;)

Lhudson wrote:
> CAD technician, is the wrong word. I wish people would do away with that.
> the name gives off an idea, that the person is every knowledgeable about technican things, esp in CAD.
>
> and alot of the people thats in that title, are not. they skills in terms of using the program usually are limited.
Message 49 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I am a cad monkey (amongst other things, but that is my trade at the
moment).

Our teams involve an engineer and a monkey or technician. Speaking purely
from my own experience over the last 15 years, engineers and architects do
not produce good drawings. What they produce will be correct in content, but
if it needs to be edited afterwards it can turn into a nightmare.

I feel that engineers and architects often have enough to do without getting
involved in the drafting, when they do, they just want to get it done as
quickly as possible.

As a draftsman, I have yet to meet a technician or angineer/architect who
would be as good a drafter as a dedicated drafter, but then that would be
expected, they trained in design, not drafting.

The above is purely my own experiences. There is no need for any architect
or engineer to get upset.

MJ


"rwblalock" wrote in message news:5803984@discussion.autodesk.com...
Not so long ago we worked as engineers/designers and draftsmen, later most
draftsmen were replaced by engineers who used computers with CAD. Today
there are CAD technicians, but the engineers still do a good bit of
production work.

Do you guys still use the old school method of designer -> drafter/CAD
monkey or does the designer do their actual drawings as well?

I can see in more creative roles where the designer would want to be the
draftsman to the point where the roles are blurred and not really even
applicable. However, in some production work you would employ the old
school model for efficiency.

Being mostly involved in civil engineering (land development) what model do
you use? There is some idea here to go back to old school but I'm not sure
that is a viable alternative. Something that is driving this thought is the
complexity of software...it takes so much time to learn and relearn as the
software becomes more complicated but not easier to use. Lately we have
been going through these yearly upgrades and it does not seem to be
advantageous to the company.

Ideas/thoughts/rants?

- Richard
Message 50 of 79
steve216586
in reply to: rblalock

I definately wouldn't call you typist or english professor!

BTW, I prefer CAD "Doctor". I practice the art of CAD drafting and design. Which, if you are skilled, is exactly what it is, an "ART". Anyway, I figure if a Chiropractor can be called a doctor then so can I. We both know about the same about medicine.
Message 51 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

Please note that my signature says "R.A." (Registered Architect), and not
A.I.A. 😉
I am not a member, and I know a lot of architects that are not members. My
clients could care less. I can assure you that I, and my fellow
professionals, am not part of some fascist group. I as an individual
architect, have nothing to go with credentialing, legitimate or otherwise.

The system of licensing and registration was set up by the states to protect
the public. It establishes a minimum standard of education, experience, and
competency. Even nail salons need to conform to cleanliness and health
dept. standards. Why would you think it is anything more than that? I know
I won't convince you otherwise, so let's just agree to disagree on this.

Actually, I did go thru the IDP process in 1987. I viewed it then, as now,
to be a way to ensure a broader range of skill learning for interns. It
helps me not get stuck drafting toilet room elevations all day. I also now
have an NCARB file on record, which will allow me to more easily seek
reciprocity in other states, should I ever need to do so.

Dan
--
Daniel J. Altamura, R.A.
Altamura Architectural Consulting
and SoftWorx, Autodesk Authorized Developer
http://partnerproducts.autodesk.com/popups/company.asp?rdid=2139
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


"clintonG" wrote in message
news:5806170@discussion.autodesk.com...
I don't hate architects per se or anybody else for that matter Daniel. Its
the context by which they as a group of fascists (notably the A.I.A. and all
of its members) have corrupted legitimate credentialing and have literally
taken control of the law for their own corrupt purpose which has been to
determine who can and who can not work in America without being being
prosecuted as a felon for the egregious crime of drawing pictures used to
remodel or construct a building without their permission.

Your "20 years" implies you are older and have not been victimized as others
have as you likely were allowed to begin working before the fascists
implemented the Intern Development Program circa 1990 which now unlawfully
compels indentured servitude and is also used to violate other laws to
prevent "undesireables" from working. People with disabilities for example.
Older white males for example.

Finally, fascism is not unique to architecture. In Wisconsin for
example --as I often note-- there are now more than 300 occupations which
the fascists control. They have even made it a felony to paint fingernails
without a license.

<%= Clinton.
Message 52 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I see where you are coming from, but to me that adds to the problem.. how can you be an architect or engineer and not know how to be good at drafting. its like a doctor not being good at being at the operations
Message 53 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

i can see that being the case on small projects, but I know if you are going after bigger work, clients do look at that.

i don't have a problem with idp, or licensing but It can be better.
Message 54 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

But not all doctors are surgeons.....



"Lhudson" wrote in message news:5806265@discussion.autodesk.com...
I see where you are coming from, but to me that adds to the problem.. how
can you be an architect or engineer and not know how to be good at drafting.
its like a doctor not being good at being at the operations
Message 55 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I still prefer Draught.



; "R.A." wrote in message
news:5805894@discussion.autodesk.com...
Not is the US.
--
Daniel J. Altamura, R.A.
Altamura Architectural Consulting
and SoftWorx, Autodesk Authorized Developer
http://partnerproducts.autodesk.com/popups/company.asp?rdid=2139
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Larry" wrote in message
news:5805332@discussion.autodesk.com...
Shouldn't that be "Draughtsman"
Message 56 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

ha...

well.. lets back to cad talk. i need some help
Message 57 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

I work in a large architectural practice where we try to keep the designers away from CAD as much as possible. They have enough to do without 'software wrangling'. The old position of 'CAD operator' is dead though. A 'CAD operator' is someone who simply inputs the architects ideas into the system, much like a tracer did 30 years ago. Most people we employ are able to document without micro-management from the architect.
Message 58 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

>Finally, fascism is not unique to architecture. In Wisconsin for
example --as I often note-- there are now more than 300 occupations which
the fascists control. They have even made it a felony to paint fingernails
without a license.

Licensing is required in any occupation where one interacts closely with the
public in a way that can spread disease or cause other physical harm. You
threw out "fingernail painting" as a frivolous example. However, poorly
trained and unlicensed manicurists are responsible for significant number of
infections. They don't just paint nails, they also cut and shape the soft
tissue around the cuticle in proximity to the septic scum that exits under
most people's fingernails, which makes it highly likely a serious infection
can be created if not done carefully. Most people who cut into living
tissue for a living (doctors, dentists, etc.) require much more than a short
course at beauty school and an annual state license. The license assures
that a minimum of training and at least has a basic understanding of
hygiene, cross contamination, and asepsis. This is the same reason
haircutters and food handlers are also licensed.

People who design and build static structure that, if they should suddenly
fail to remain static, can cause serious death and injury (something which
has happened with alarming frequency in ages past) are also licensed. Many
people contribute the work to raise a building, but it's only the PE's and
licensed architects that put their reputations and careers on the line if
something goes wrong. They're the only ones who get prosecuted or sued.

You may have a personal issue with a particular licensing body for a
perceived grievance, but that does not immediately render all government
regulation and licensing as "fascist". In fact, your hyperbolic and liberal
use of that term has only served to diminish it's meaning and weaken your
argument. Even if you have a valid argument against the AIA, the way you've
presented here only serves to make people think you're a disgruntled kook.

For the record, I'm a Product Design Engineer, not a licensed Professional
engineer. I've got no vested interest in preserving the status quo. In
fact, the experience and testing requirements to become a PE make it
difficult, especially in the manufacturing world, to ever get licensed. I
might better be off if the licensing requirements disappeared, although I'd
probably have a heck of time getting insured and bonded.

Patrick
Message 59 of 79
rblalock
in reply to: rblalock

> The above is purely my own experiences. There is no need for any > architector engineer to get upset.

God knows we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings! = 🙂

I think it is the software holding back the design process. It should allow the professional to produce accurate work without a multi-tiered labor process. I don't think I'll see it before I retire tho.

It's still better than it was before the PC entered the arena. I only want some of my users to experience those good 'ol days to appreciate what they have now!

- Richard
Message 60 of 79
Anonymous
in reply to: rblalock

Who can forget the days of scratching off ink with a blade, covering the
areas with magic tape and then redrawing.... those were fun days.


"rwblalock" wrote in message news:5806326@discussion.autodesk.com...
> The above is purely my own experiences. There is no need for any >
> architector engineer to get upset.

God knows we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings! = 🙂

I think it is the software holding back the design process. It should allow
the professional to produce accurate work without a multi-tiered labor
process. I don't think I'll see it before I retire tho.

It's still better than it was before the PC entered the arena. I only want
some of my users to experience those good 'ol days to appreciate what they
have now!

- Richard

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