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*Kirkland, Charles
Message 1 of 11 (40 Views)

drawings being copyed(stolen is more like it)

40 Views, 10 Replies
12-05-2002 05:57 AM
Hi,

I have been having with a builder who bought 1 set of plan for us, Then he
turns around and makes as many copies as he wants,(IF HE WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A
REPRODUCABLE I PROBLEY WOULD NOT BE AS MAD).We stamp our plans with a red
copyright stamp but that has not seemed to work. We have contacted the
builder by no replay.

Is there any special patchs or anything else that would work.

Thanks
Charles Kirkland
*Maeding, James
Message 2 of 11 (40 Views)

Re: drawings being copyed(stolen is more like it)

12-05-2002 07:57 AM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
Once he has a hardcopy, you cannot do anything. Typically no one cares though because it costs him as much to make the
copies as you. Hopefully you don't mean he is selling the plans. That would just be wacko for a contractor or
Engineer.

"Charles Kirkland"
|>Hi,
|>
|>I have been having with a builder who bought 1 set of plan for us, Then he
|>turns around and makes as many copies as he wants,(IF HE WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A
|>REPRODUCABLE I PROBLEY WOULD NOT BE AS MAD).We stamp our plans with a red
|>copyright stamp but that has not seemed to work. We have contacted the
|>builder by no replay.
|>
|>Is there any special patchs or anything else that would work.
|>
|>Thanks
|>Charles Kirkland
|>

James Maeding
Civil Engineer/Programmer
*Meicho, Ron
Message 3 of 11 (40 Views)

Re: drawings being copyed(stolen is more like it)

12-05-2002 08:49 AM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles


Charles,

I worked with an engineer a few years back who liked to wet stamp everything.
He resorted to using green ink. The green doesn't photo copy real well,
the second generation copy is quite faded. Here we xref all our stamps
(blocks only for special cases). None go out of the office.

Ron Meicho

Charles Kirkland wrote:

Hi,

I have been having with a builder who bought 1 set of plan for us, Then
he

turns around and makes as many copies as he wants,(IF HE WOULD HAVE
BOUGHT A

REPRODUCABLE I PROBLEY WOULD NOT BE AS MAD).We stamp our plans with
a red

copyright stamp but that has not seemed to work. We have contacted
the

builder by no replay.

Is there any special patchs or anything else that would work.

Thanks


*H, Scott
Message 4 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-06-2002 03:19 AM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
I think that's incorrect - having read a Donald Gardner Architect's
disclaimer. You might contact them just for a possible bit of info
gathering.

http://www.dongardner.com/copyright.asp
*Talsky, Jack
Message 5 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-06-2002 02:51 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
"No part of this electronic publication may be...transmitted in any form by
any means, electronic, ..., or otherwise, without prior written permission
of Donald A. Gardner Interactive, LLC."

This seems a little bit contradictory to the fact, since in order to read
the web site that this is talking about, one must transport the publication
via the internet railroad in order to see it to read it and order a plan. I
did not see any written permission for me to do that, so by reading his
blurb, I am now placed in some possible liability for up to $150,000 in
damages.

Just kind of struck me as a little too much paranoia, but maybe he is right,
or has been burned and knows what he is doing.

Interestingly, the LLC means he is a limited liability corporation.

Jack Talsky

"Scott H" wrote in message
news:988A1A69C329A544E76CB5B11F81E768@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I think that's incorrect - having read a Donald Gardner Architect's
> disclaimer. You might contact them just for a possible bit of info
> gathering.
>
> http://www.dongardner.com/copyright.asp
>
>
*Caudle, Marshall
Message 6 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-06-2002 03:58 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
He's probably been burned - it's typical for the homebuilders around here to
buy a set of plans and then build 15 or 20 houses from that one set of
drawings.

Last month I had someone call me wanting me to seal a set of Donald
Gardner's house plans because the building inspector required a seal. I
told her to call him since she bought them from him and he is a registered
architect.

I've seen this happen several times in the last year or so - building
inspectors demanding a professional seal on house plans. When you think
about it I guess it makes sense from their viewpoint. They require a seal
on a $100,000 commercial project but unlicensed designers are typically
drawing million dollar homes and nothing is required in the way of a
licensed professional architect or engineer to be involved. That puts a lot
of the "design" liability for code compliance on the inspector should
something go wrong.

What do they do in California with regard to "seals" on house plans?


"Jack Talsky" wrote in message
news:smileyvery-happy:7039CF44C97059C1C13DA48F95A07A1@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> "No part of this electronic publication may be...transmitted in any form
by
> any means, electronic, ..., or otherwise, without prior written permission
> of Donald A. Gardner Interactive, LLC."
>
> This seems a little bit contradictory to the fact, since in order to read
> the web site that this is talking about, one must transport the
publication
> via the internet railroad in order to see it to read it and order a plan.
I
> did not see any written permission for me to do that, so by reading his
> blurb, I am now placed in some possible liability for up to $150,000 in
> damages.
>
> Just kind of struck me as a little too much paranoia, but maybe he is
right,
> or has been burned and knows what he is doing.
>
> Interestingly, the LLC means he is a limited liability corporation.
>
> Jack Talsky
>
> "Scott H" wrote in message
> news:988A1A69C329A544E76CB5B11F81E768@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> > I think that's incorrect - having read a Donald Gardner Architect's
> > disclaimer. You might contact them just for a possible bit of info
> > gathering.
> >
> > http://www.dongardner.com/copyright.asp
> >
> >
>
>
*Price, Gordon
Message 7 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-08-2002 02:52 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
"Marshall Caudle" wrote in message
news:smileyvery-happy:8516B58D0A0F325F4B343B6FA12A863@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
> I've seen this happen several times in the last year or so - building
> inspectors demanding a professional seal on house plans. When you think
> about it I guess it makes sense from their viewpoint. They require a seal
> on a $100,000 commercial project but unlicensed designers are typically
> drawing million dollar homes and nothing is required in the way of a
> licensed professional architect or engineer to be involved. That puts a
lot
> of the "design" liability for code compliance on the inspector should
> something go wrong.

The law specifically says (as I understand it, not a lawyer, yada yada yada)
that on residential work (within limits), an Architect's seal is not
required. If the structure does not follow UBC requirements, or is deemed
"complex" by the building official, a Structural Engineer may need to stamp
and sign the then required structural design drawings. Sure, a building
inspector can pawn off responsibility for their own work, and a home owner
can complain to city council. The plan checker's job is to check the plans,
not check the stamp and nothing more. The fact is, you don't need a licence
to do a house. The home owner can even do their own design & drawings, as
long as those drawings meet the requirements of the city for submittal, and
the design meets code requirements, then you should get a permit.
As for purchasing one set of drawings and building 20 houses, I believe the
law reads that the builder can then be found liable for the cost of
construction. Thus, builder pays Architect/Designer $10,000 for plans for
one house, builder builds 20 houses at $100,000. Builder can be found liable
to Architect/Designer for $1,900,000 (19 illegally built houses at $100,000
each).
And an Architect who signs someone elses drawings is also breaking the law,
and can loose their licence (at least in California). Not sure on the
specifics, but the requirement is that the Architect can only sign drawings
they have had direct control over the production of, either by themselves or
their staff. When an Architect takes a plan book set and modifies it to meet
local requirements, they take responsility for everything and are expected
to review it. If they just take someone elses drawings and stamp them, they
are in deep do do! And someone has to have payed for the design and the
right to modify it. If the homeowner brings a page from a plan book and says
'Draw me a permit set of that', the design has been stolen. Again, deep do
do.
Last but not least, commercial work requires an Architect's stamp because it
is a public building. We still have the freedom/responsibility in this
country (for the moment) to design, draw and even build our own homes. More
hoops to jump thru, yes (and rightly so), but it is not yet illegal.

Woah, too much for a Sunday evening. Must go drink nice warm tea and get
some rest :smileywink:

Gordon
*Caudle, Marshall
Message 8 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-08-2002 08:05 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
"Gordon Price" wrote in message
news:19D11D48E1C35C59B6476F7B99C2E61F@in.WebX.maYIadrTaRb...
.
> As for purchasing one set of drawings and building 20 houses, I believe
the
> law reads that the builder can then be found liable for the cost of
> construction. Thus, builder pays Architect/Designer $10,000 for plans for
> one house, builder builds 20 houses at $100,000. Builder can be found
liable
> to Architect/Designer for $1,900,000 (19 illegally built houses at
$100,000
> each).

I had not heard of this - I'll have to check to see if that is the case here
in NC. That would make some of these home builders quiver in their boots.
I'll bet Donald Gardner and a few others in that market could more that
double their income. I should have gone ahead and got that law degree I
thought about years ago. It's almost becoming necessary these days to be a
lawyer just to practice as a archtiect or engineer.



> And an Architect who signs someone elses drawings is also breaking the
law,
> and can loose their licence (at least in California). Not sure on the
> specifics, but the requirement is that the Architect can only sign
drawings
> they have had direct control over the production of, either by themselves
or
> their staff.

Same here in NC!



> When an Architect takes a plan book set and modifies it to meet
> local requirements, they take responsility for everything and are expected
> to review it.

That's why I won't do it. Taking responsibility for something you didn't do
doesn't make sense. I have enough with what I do, let alone someone
else's.work.



>If they just take someone elses drawings and stamp them, they
> are in deep do do! And someone has to have payed for the design and the
> right to modify it.

Same here in NC.



>If the homeowner brings a page from a plan book and says
> 'Draw me a permit set of that', the design has been stolen. Again, deep do
> do.

I actually had something similar happen to me. I did preliminary design
drawings for a church. The church took my drawings and hired a contractor
to build the building. The contractor took my preliminary drawings and
hired an engineer to prepare "sealed" drawings for permit submittal. I
turned the engineer in to the registration board for "stealing my design."
The board did nothing!



> Last but not least, commercial work requires an Architect's stamp because
it
> is a public building. We still have the freedom/responsibility in this
> country (for the moment) to design, draw and even build our own homes.
More
> hoops to jump thru, yes (and rightly so), but it is not yet illegal.

Not all commercial work is "public." Some of it is private and never
entered by the general public. In that respect, your logic could also be
applied to some commercial work. I see the residential market changing in
this area. At one time the local building inspection reviewed house plans
and required a minimum number of drawings. Then for a period of time they
didn't review any house plans - only commercial. Now they are back to
requiring a minimum number of drawings for a permit in order to build a
house. Unfortunately, what many homeowners don't realize is that the
drawings and specs are a legal contract. I've seen so many cases over the
years where home builders quote a price for a house and then when the house
runs over that cost, the builder points out to the homeowner that this or
that was an "allowance." The mose frequent one I see is a lighting
allowance of $250.00. You get the picture. Why not just say I'll build you
this house for an allowance of $40,000.00 - anything over that you have to
pay!
*H, Scott
Message 9 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-08-2002 09:20 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
Good point, Jack - better watch where you browse . OTOH, Gardner's plans
are extremely clear when it comes to "if this stamp does not appear in RED
INK, you are violating a copyright". If the author of a copyrighted work
wished to pursue it, they could recover some kind of settlement.

(unlike "Marshall's church" - in which case it'd probably give him more
negative publicity than money/satisfaction)
*Broda, Chris
Message 10 of 11 (40 Views)

Re:

12-09-2002 09:12 PM in reply to: *Kirkland, Charles
Here in New York it's a felony to rubberstamp drawings. And every project worth
more than $10,000 construction cost requires an architect's stamp. Around here,
in the NYC metro area , $10,000 will get you a powder room. We are building at
$300 per s.f.

Every house, new or renovated, must have a stamp. In fact, some towns here
require a stamp no matter what you do. Nice to have some job security.

However, I was burned once when a builder used my house plans again for a
different house. Even though we may copyright our work, how can you know the
plans were used again without hiring a detective to contact every town building
department?

Disappearing ink. I like the green ink suggestion. Any others?

Chris Broda
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