CAD Outsourcing

[Anonymous]

hey guys,

i want to hear your thoughts about outsourcing cad work overseas/offshore. a lot of companies are doing this right now.

what do you think are the pros and cons of this system...? are you in favor of this?

Chris

[Anonymous]

well, i agree with most of what you've said..

i'm from the philippines, and i'm am employed by a company working with land development projects in the US, particularly in Nevada. they really do give a much higher rate for cad operators compared to other companies.

they chose the Philippines probably because of the lower salary rate of employees and a high supply of skilled workers, coz unlike in their place they are lacking in skilled workers.

[Anonymous]

For anyone interested in the outsourcing phenom, there is a great book
called The World is Flat by Thomas Freidman.

If you want a global marketplace then you get global competition with it. I
don't really see a differnece between outsourcing and buying a Toyota. Fair
global competition might not be in our best interests. What does that say
about us?




wrote in message news:5104570@discussion.autodesk.com...
hey guys,

i want to hear your thoughts about outsourcing cad work overseas/offshore.
a lot of companies are doing this right now.

what do you think are the pros and cons of this system...? are you in favor
of this?

Chris

[Anonymous]

"... What does that say about us?"
We have developed of higher standard of living. Message was edited by: jbryant4

[Anonymous]

Just goes to show you that we have to stay at the forefront in technology if
they
are catching up..............

Just be a step ahead is all.

Leo


wrote in message news:5105717@discussion.autodesk.com...
"... What does that say about us?"
We have developed of higher standard of living.

Message was edited by: jbryant4

[Anonymous]

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 22:32:12 +0000, Chris Roy Matira <> wrote:

>well, i agree with most of what you've said..
>
>i'm from the philippines, and i'm am employed by a company working with land development projects in the US, particularly in Nevada. they really do give a much higher rate for cad operators compared to other companies.
>
>they chose the Philippines probably because of the lower salary rate of employees and a high supply of skilled workers, coz unlike in their place they are lacking in skilled workers.

They may well pay a higher rate than you would otherwise get in the
Philippines, however it is still a lot lower than they would have to
pay in the US. As for there being a lack of skilled workers in the US,
somehow I think that to suggest than with a population of around
87,000,000 you have an oversupply of skilled workers compared to the
US with a population of over 250,000,000 is drawing a slightly long
bow. This does not mean that there are no skilled workers in the
Philippines. The simple reality is that the only reason you are
getting the work is because it is cheaper compared to a US resident
worker. With Australian companies wanting to outsource draughting,
there is definitely an oversupply of skilled draughtsmen here, but I
don't see US companies outsourcing their work to Australia. Of course
this is because our costs are very similar to those in the US.

Unfortunately everyone wants to get something at the lowest possible
price - free if possible.

I have just had an unpleasant call from a client. In October last year
I was engaged to prepare the workshop detail drawings of 5
architectural staircases - you know very fancy, fiddly and nothing
standard. I provided a written quotation specifying the cost would be
based on the number of drawings required and the size of drawing sheet
used. The quotation was accepted. Well now in March, having not heard
from my client for a couple of months I decided to invoice them. It
was for 6 A3 drawings and there were extensive revisions after the
first set were accepted. At $AUS 240 per drawing, the invoice was for
$1,860 including revisions. The call was complaining about the total
cost despite my client clearly accepting the quotation and number of
drawings necessary. When questioned as to what he was expecting, he
said he thought the invoice would be for "a couple of hundred
dollars"! I asked if he would be willing to do the work for that
amount and his answer was "No"!

[fxcastil]

Chris,

If you enjoy reading I also recommnend , it was given to me by a friend who studies sociology as a hobby .

World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Violence and Global Instability
by Author Amy Chua

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385503024/103-8290139-7022252?v=glance&n=283155


Fred C

[Anonymous]

Sounds to me that you have some personal issues in your professional life
that you need to work out.
As far as the outsourcing goes and products imported into the US, why be
part of the problem? Yes, it is true many products we buy are made
overseas. I for one make an extra effort to purchase products only made in
the USA. I just furnished my home with furniture made by local companies,
all solid woods, high quality and beautiful craftsmanship. Not some garbage
you would buy from overseas. It all starts with the individual. Think
about the consequences before you purchase anything. Every little bit
helps.
"Reid M. Addis" wrote in message
news:5105434@discussion.autodesk.com...
This wasn't a negative response (I hope anyway). Just realistic.
If the intent was seen as negative I apologize. But seriously, look around
your house and see how many "American workers" you think you may have put
out of work by purchasing the products you have and use.

My shirt says "Made in Thailand". My pants are "Made in Pakistan". I'm not
sure where everything else is from. However, my CAD files say "Made 100% in
America!"
A bit silly really if you think about it. Do you really want to draw stair
details, bathroom elevations, cabinet sections, even with standards, over
and over again?
I spent 5 years to get a B.Arch and 1 1/2 to get an M.Arch from two
different Ivy League universities (=expensive) and I can assure you that I
was not looking forward to doing this when I got out of college.
What else would I have been good for at that point? Good question? Perhaps
we need a better "internship" for our architecture students so they know
more about architecture and less about drafting when they get out of school.
Or maybe we should work construction projects like I did in high school so
we better understand how buildings go together.

--
Regards,
---------------
Reid M. Addis
Registered Architect
Architectural Applications Specialist
Granary Associates
411 North 20th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19130
Ph. 215-665-7056
email: addis@granaryassoc.com

[Anonymous]

Buy as many Toyotas as you want. Toyota has more assembly plants in the USA
then any other car manufacturer. They keep many American families employed
and fed.
"Lumpy" wrote in message
news:5105695@discussion.autodesk.com...
For anyone interested in the outsourcing phenom, there is a great book
called The World is Flat by Thomas Freidman.

If you want a global marketplace then you get global competition with it. I
don't really see a differnece between outsourcing and buying a Toyota. Fair
global competition might not be in our best interests. What does that say
about us?




wrote in message news:5104570@discussion.autodesk.com...
hey guys,

i want to hear your thoughts about outsourcing cad work overseas/offshore.
a lot of companies are doing this right now.

what do you think are the pros and cons of this system...? are you in favor
of this?

Chris

[Anonymous]

got a link?

thanks,
Daron


"Reid M. Addis" wrote in message
news:5104747@discussion.autodesk.com...
We have begun using Cadworld in India, and they are excellent.
They are better at drawing with CAD that many of our own staff, and pick up
inconsistencies across drawings, like dimensional discrepancies between
plans and elevations, etc.

[Anonymous]

i'll try to take a look at it. thanks.

[Anonymous]

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:37:49 +0000, Reid M. Addis
wrote:

>We have begun using Cadworld in India, and they are excellent.
>They are better at drawing with CAD that many of our own staff, and pick up
>inconsistencies across drawings, like dimensional discrepancies between
>plans and elevations, etc.
>
>Try not to think of this as "taking jobs away" from people. These services,
>while they are cost effective, should be seen as a supplement to your
>current staff to help get work done that would not be possible otherwise. We
>all know that work comes in cycles and there are times when you simply don't
>have enough staff to handle a temporary increase in your workload, such as
>several short term projects that come in at the same time.
>
>Rather than hiring staff that we may have to let go due to future lack of
>work, buying them hardware, and getting them trained, we use CadWorld's
>services. We have established with them what our office standards are and
>through Buzzsaw we are able to transmit files quickly. We can send red marks
>to them at the end of the day and have the updated drawings the next
>morning.

But let's face it, the only reason you went therein the first place
was cost. I mean you did not find out they picked up inconsistencies
or dimensional errors until AFTER you started using them, and you
started using them because of cost only.

As for the vagaries of work load, if that was the reason, you did not
have to outsource overseas to cope with that. You could just as easily
have outsourced wherever you are located. There are plenty of
operators out there that would be willing to do the work, provide
their own hardware and software, but the cost would be higher of
course. So maybe the term needs to be "offshoring" rather than
"outsourcing" or just be done with it and call it what it is -
"exporting jobs".

But what I find a little amusing is that rather than have proper work
done for you in the first place, you outsource to India and then sing
their praises because they pick up errors generated by your designers
or your clients.

Now what would happen if one of these operators that are so good
wanted to migrate to where you are? Would you be happy to use them at
your local rates? After all, they have proved their worth doing work
for you in India. Surely the quality of their work would not diminish
simply because they moved to a higher wage country.

Then there is the other overriding question. If they charge so little,
how are they able to afford the software and hardware and keep them
upgraded? Their wages may be lower, but the cost of hardware and
software varies little across the world. If anything they would be
higher.

It is cost only isn't it? After all, if they doubled their costs you
would go elsewhere no matter how good the operators.

--

Regards,

Ian A. White, CPEng.

| /| / WAI Engineering
| /_| / Sydney 2000
|/ |/ Australia

www.wai.com.au

mailto:ianwhite@wai.com.au

callto://waiwhite on Skype

[Anonymous]

We are testing out sourcing.... and its a headache.

we are sending chunks of 2 standard details at a time to build our library
from. I'll tell you this... you'll get the detail back, it looks fine, plots
fine, everything seems to be... fine. Just ungroup the detail group and
take a look deeper. The first set we got back they inserted the ACAD
details and exploded them... I know what your thinking. "The people we use
arent that bad".

You find miss use of family files, of groups, of hatches. I had to walk
them through on most of the program. Breakline families that have been
ravaged and dont work right anymore. Just remember, its cheap because labor
is cheap... training that cheap labor still cost the same. Chances are they
have Revit loaded onto their desktop and figured out where the line tool
was. If your lucky they also found filled regions and patterns. I could go
on all day with the list off issues I came across.

Its over rated... a bunch of CEOs at a round table talking about how much
money they saved outsourcing, not understanding the overhead your going to
get when you need to fix the mess. Its like a kid with the superman lunch
box... next thing you know, everyone wants one... just a fad for now, till
the quality improves. If the ofshoring quality doesnt improve it will fade
away just like a fad.


wrote in message news:5104570@discussion.autodesk.com...
hey guys,

i want to hear your thoughts about outsourcing cad work overseas/offshore.
a lot of companies are doing this right now.

what do you think are the pros and cons of this system...? are you in favor
of this?

Chris

[Anonymous]

AlMighty SR,

I can think of many examples which have affected me personally.

I worked at Kaiser Steel in Fontana, Ca. back in the 70's now the steel industry is practically dead in the U.S. No more U.S. Steel company , Bethlehem steel or Kaiser Steel. Most of our steel now is imported.

I remember car-pooling with my sister in the early 80's and she was buying a new Toyota Celica with a 4 cylinder engine.
I kept telling her she should not buy a "cheap" Japanese car, but a "good" American car like my Lincoln Cougar with a V-8 engine. My sister would remind me of this every time she had to use her Toyota Celica to pick me up at home because my car was not working.

I had a job in the 80's at a company designing "clean rooms" for the semi-conductor industry. Back when Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Harris, National SemiConductor and Intel. I remember employees at these companies complaining about Japanese computer memory manufactures "dumping" chips into the U.S. market at cheap price because the Japanese companies were helped by the Japanese goverment. They wanted help from the U.S. goverment by imposing higher tariffs on imported chips, the help never came and now you know where most of your semi-conductors come from.
Only Intel has managed to grow since the 80's.

My shirts are from Cambodia, Sr-Lanka, Mexico, India, Korea, Bangladesh, Ukraine, and Honduras but yet I only shop at my local Mervyns and Robinsons/May Co. I wished I was as well traveled as my clothes.

Look at at you VCR, DVD, T.V. Microwave, blender and just about any electrical appliance and see if you find any made in the U.S.A.

I was calling A.T.&T with problems with my cell phone I noticed the support peopla had names like David and Sam but spoke with an Indian/Hindu accent. This also happended with my Mortage Loan. I wonder where these support centers were at ??

Look at the labels on the bananas and the other fruit and produce at you local supermarket ?

With large companies like Microsoft and Bank of America using sources in the Ukraine and India. Many other compaies are following the trend. I don't think outsourcing is a fad which is going away anytime soon.

Maximo

[Anonymous]

I have been following this interesting discussion for sometime now. I work for a India based company providing CAD documentation services to prominent architectural firms in the US. Through my extensive interaction with AEC firms, I have come to understand that the primary reason to outsource is NOT TO SAVE MONEY (although that is definitely a bonus) but to handle peak production loads without practicing an internal hire-train-fire policy and without burning out existing staff through regular late hours spent on routine tasks.

Our contrasting socio-economic structures give rise to strengths, efficiences and specializations in different areas and in an era of free global economy it only makes sound business sense to take advantage of all possible synergies. At a more personal level, I ( and many other Indians ) wear Levi's jeans, drink Coca Cola, use Dell computers and put our money in to the local Citibank branch.

India also utilizes American excellence and technical expertise in the field of architecture, as is evident in the number of projects US architectural firms are doing in India and other Asian countries.

Further, a higher standard of living, expensive ivy-league education and hence a higher cost to company should dictate that US trained architects spend their expensive man-hours for more critical activities such as design, quality checks, client interaction, on-site supervision etc. rather than doing routine drafting.

Anirban
cadworld@cadworld-aces.com
-------------------------------------
Cadworld Infosystems Private Limited
-------------------------------------
an ISO 9001:2000 company
www.cadworld-aces.com
Phone : 91-33-24413820
Fax : 91-33-24413821

[Anonymous]

We're a Union Shop, Outsource? Never.

[Anonymous]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:46:41 +0000, Anirban <> wrote:

>I have been following this interesting discussion for sometime now. I work for a India based company providing CAD documentation services to prominent architectural firms in the US. Through my extensive interaction with AEC firms, I have come to understand that the primary reason to outsource is NOT TO SAVE MONEY (although that is definitely a bonus) but to handle peak production loads without practicing an internal hire-train-fire policy and without burning out existing staff through regular late hours spent on routine tasks.

Sorry. The ONLY reason companies outsource to low wage (hence low
cost) countries is to save money. If that was not the case, then you
would see companies outsource to countries where wages were similar to
their own. You simply do not see that. I have yet to hear of a company
anywhere in the world that outsources its work to a country where
wages are higher than they would be in their own company. As for
"burning out staff", what staff? They have sacked their staff (or
rather those who would have been doing the work they are now
outsourcing) so there is no one there to "burn out". As for hire-and
fire, the companies outsourcing do NOT have to keep hiring and firing.
They can just as easily outsource to contracting companies in their
home company. If you want an example, many farmers do not have all the
machinery to carry out their own harvesting of their crops, so they
contract out the harvesting to contracting companies who just do the
harvesting for such farmers. Now they cannot outsource that task
overseas, however even here in Australia, some companies have managed
to exploit a loophole. There are numerous instances where a company
has contracted out their labour hiring to a company in Eastern Europe.
The contracting company in Eastern Europe organises the labour and
necessary work permits for people from anywhere in the world who are
willing to accept a fraction of the wages that would normally be paid
here. These people are then sent to work on projects in Australia, and
because of the labour hire arrangements, they get away with it - until
that loophole is closed.

So you see, the ONLY reason for outsourcing to a low wage country is
to save money. Pity that the senior management roles cannot also be
outsourced. Just imagine the huge savings to be made there!

There is one question I have that no one seems to want to answer.
Given that AutoCAD costs the same the world over (actually prices are
higher outside North America), how do these low rates pay for the
software and hardware? I mean, AutoCAD sells for just under $AUS 7,000
in Australia and this would be something like Rs231,000. Then there is
the hardware, operating systems, upgrades of all this, and the like.
With companies in India charging something like 1/10th to 1/20th what
it would cost to do the work here, how can those companies afford the
hardware and software?

--

Regards,

Ian A. White, CPEng.

| /| / WAI Engineering
| /_| / Sydney 2000
|/ |/ Australia

www.wai.com.au

mailto:ianwhite@wai.com.au

callto://waiwhite on Skype

[fxcastil]

Ian,

You are right on the money issue. I have not heard of U.S. companies outsourcing to Japan or Germany or Great Britian.

The companies in India can buy any software program from China or Hong Kong for about $20.00 U.S. Dollars.
And the software you buy from these contriies has no copy protection. Friends who travel to Hong-Kong return with lots of electronics and software / music / movies / games.

The same large software companies which use cheap labor in third world countries also get their product mass pirated in these same countries. Maybe a little Karma ?

Fred C

[Anonymous]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 11:44:30 +0000, fxcastil <> wrote:

>Ian,
>
>You are right on the money issue. I have not heard of U.S. companies outsourcing to Japan or Germany or Great Britian.
>
>The companies in India can buy any software program from China or Hong Kong for about $20.00 U.S. Dollars.
>And the software you buy from these contriies has no copy protection. Friends who travel to Hong-Kong return with lots of electronics and software / music / movies / games.

That being the case, it is time to notify the Insurance Council of
Australia (and similar bodies in other countries) so that they can
notify their members that claims from companies that outsource should
be scrutinised to determine whether the software being use is fully
licensed. They can't hide behind third party agreements to get around
using licensed software.

>The same large software companies which use cheap labor in third world countries also get their product mass pirated in these same countries. Maybe a little Karma ?

What I find really strange about India in particular (I know more than
a little about this) is that way back, the British did not go in and
"conquer" India. They went to India as traders. In many cases the
various principalities did not have direct access to ports other than
through other principalities or through areas where goods were
hijacked by thugs (now that is a word actually adopted from India). In
stepped the British after they were requested to by the various
rulers. Slowly their influence grew until they assumed control. This
was until the general population realised they did not control their
own country and essentially expelled the British at independence.

What do they say about history repeating itself? The players are
different, the "rulers" are different, but they don't seem to have
learned too much. Yet again they find themselves as the servants of
other countries, being taken advantage of and being paid a pittance in
return.

Maybe they need to wake up.

--

Regards,

Ian A. White, CPEng.

| /| / WAI Engineering
| /_| / Sydney 2000
|/ |/ Australia

www.wai.com.au

mailto:ianwhite@wai.com.au

callto://waiwhite on Skype

[Anonymous]

I have used CADWorld and I had quite a few problems with them, the experiences I had on one particular project lead me to stop using them or even considering them on any beyond VERY basic drafting. As an example I received interior elevations with light switches and fire extinguishers in the middle of doors and windows. Yes the rates were very low, but when I factored in the time I spent correcting and redlining the drawings there was little to no savings with regards to the schedule or the costs. Simple revisions such as the interior elevations which I motioned earlier often took 2 or 3 rounds of comments. There were some problems where I just gave up and had my staff make the corrections because of the quantity of errors.

The old saying "You get what you pay for" is very true.

[Anonymous]

I'm just saying it will be a fad if the service continues to be so poor.

Take the toyota, handa and other imports. These were small uncomfotable
cars with little lugsurie. In the 90s GM, Ford, Mopar, all saw a huge jump
in their SUVs... because they were offering better service. Things are
turning around beck to small cars now because of the gas prices but you see
what I'm getting at. Bad service = fad.


wrote in message news:5108264@discussion.autodesk.com...
AlMighty SR,

I can think of many examples which have affected me personally.

I worked at Kaiser Steel in Fontana, Ca. back in the 70's now the steel
industry is practically dead in the U.S. No more U.S. Steel company ,
Bethlehem steel or Kaiser Steel. Most of our steel now is imported.

I remember car-pooling with my sister in the early 80's and she was buying
a new Toyota Celica with a 4 cylinder engine.
I kept telling her she should not buy a "cheap" Japanese car, but a "good"
American car like my Lincoln Cougar with a V-8 engine. My sister would
remind me of this every time she had to use her Toyota Celica to pick me up
at home because my car was not working.

I had a job in the 80's at a company designing "clean rooms" for the
semi-conductor industry. Back when Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Harris,
National SemiConductor and Intel. I remember employees at these companies
complaining about Japanese computer memory manufactures "dumping" chips into
the U.S. market at cheap price because the Japanese companies were helped by
the Japanese goverment. They wanted help from the U.S. goverment by
imposing higher tariffs on imported chips, the help never came and now you
know where most of your semi-conductors come from.
Only Intel has managed to grow since the 80's.

My shirts are from Cambodia, Sr-Lanka, Mexico, India, Korea, Bangladesh,
Ukraine, and Honduras but yet I only shop at my local Mervyns and
Robinsons/May Co. I wished I was as well traveled as my clothes.

Look at at you VCR, DVD, T.V. Microwave, blender and just about any
electrical appliance and see if you find any made in the U.S.A.

I was calling A.T.&T with problems with my cell phone I noticed the support
peopla had names like David and Sam but spoke with an Indian/Hindu accent.
This also happended with my Mortage Loan. I wonder where these support
centers were at ??

Look at the labels on the bananas and the other fruit and produce at you
local supermarket ?

With large companies like Microsoft and Bank of America using sources in the
Ukraine and India. Many other compaies are following the trend. I don't
think outsourcing is a fad which is going away anytime soon.

Maximo