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*Sharp, Craig
Message 1 of 7 (178 Views)

Another reason not to use online product and project support?

178 Views, 6 Replies
11-21-2000 09:13 PM
Here is what I got when I clicked on my pointA newsletter link to log on to
point A...

I don't think we're quite there yet, guys.

/gotoPointA.jsp:

null
java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.epicentric.common.WebsiteUtils.sendRedirect(WebsiteUtils.java,
Compiled Code)
at jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf._jspService(jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf.java, Compiled
Code)
at allaire.jrun.jsp.HttpJSPServlet.service(HttpJSPServlet.java, Compiled
Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
at
allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunNamedDispatcher.forward(JRunNamedDispatcher.java,
Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.jsp.JSPServlet.service(JSPServlet.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
at
allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunRequestDispatcher.forward(JRunRequestDispatcher.jav
a, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.servlet.JvmContext.dispatch(JvmContext.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.jrpp.ProxyEndpoint.run(ProxyEndpoint.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.ThreadPool.run(ThreadPool.java, Compiled Code)
at allaire.jrun.WorkerThread.run(WorkerThread.java, Compiled Code)

I just don't think Autodesk is bug free enough for us to rely on their
online services.

Craig
*Dillon, Matt
Message 2 of 7 (178 Views)

Re: Another reason not to use online product and project support?

11-21-2000 10:01 PM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Works for me. But again, PointA is not ProjectPoint, which is what I am
assuming you're alluding to. PointA is a web site, that's all. It does not
serve as a point of project-specific collaboration, but as a source for
information and content and a portal to other sources of information and
content. Just like any other web page.

ProjectPoint is a completely different animal, and, ONE MORE TIME, has
multiple reduncancies, multiple mirrored sites, geographically dispersed, in
case California slides off into the ocean or something, and an extremely
high level of security. Absolutely bullet-proof? Nope. Nothing in this world
is. But again, used properly, which ain't hard, it is extremely reliable and
effective. I have yet to run across anyone who has experienced loss of data
or suffered serious downtime.

You're talking apples and oranges.

--
************************************************************************
Please do not send technical requests to me via private email
************************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator, Autodesk Discussion Groups

http://www.dccadd.com

Craig Sharp wrote in message
news:2D8867F3082D2ACC2357AE98F746326C@in.WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> Here is what I got when I clicked on my pointA newsletter link to log on
to
> point A...
>
> I don't think we're quite there yet, guys.
>
> /gotoPointA.jsp:
>
> null
> java.lang.NullPointerException
> at com.epicentric.common.WebsiteUtils.sendRedirect(WebsiteUtils.java,
> Compiled Code)
> at jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf._jspService(jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf.java,
Compiled
> Code)
> at allaire.jrun.jsp.HttpJSPServlet.service(HttpJSPServlet.java, Compiled
> Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> at
> allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunNamedDispatcher.forward(JRunNamedDispatcher.java,
> Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.jsp.JSPServlet.service(JSPServlet.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> at
>
allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunRequestDispatcher.forward(JRunRequestDispatcher.jav
> a, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.servlet.JvmContext.dispatch(JvmContext.java, Compiled
Code)
> at allaire.jrun.jrpp.ProxyEndpoint.run(ProxyEndpoint.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.ThreadPool.run(ThreadPool.java, Compiled Code)
> at allaire.jrun.WorkerThread.run(WorkerThread.java, Compiled Code)
>
> I just don't think Autodesk is bug free enough for us to rely on their
> online services.
>
> Craig
>
*Hurley, Shaan
Message 3 of 7 (178 Views)

Re:

11-21-2000 10:13 PM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Craig,

You must also have to consider that bulletproof browser and version you are
using as that could have also been the cause of the Point A error .

-Shaan

"Matt Dillon" wrote in message
news:5F506196425CB8802A0EC912ED1F3E79@in.WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> Works for me. But again, PointA is not ProjectPoint, which is what I am
> assuming you're alluding to. PointA is a web site, that's all. It does not
> serve as a point of project-specific collaboration, but as a source for
> information and content and a portal to other sources of information and
> content. Just like any other web page.
>
> ProjectPoint is a completely different animal, and, ONE MORE TIME, has
> multiple reduncancies, multiple mirrored sites, geographically dispersed,
in
> case California slides off into the ocean or something, and an extremely
> high level of security. Absolutely bullet-proof? Nope. Nothing in this
world
> is. But again, used properly, which ain't hard, it is extremely reliable
and
> effective. I have yet to run across anyone who has experienced loss of
data
> or suffered serious downtime.
>
> You're talking apples and oranges.
>
> --
> ************************************************************************
> Please do not send technical requests to me via private email
> ************************************************************************
> Matt Dillon
> Assistant Moderator, Autodesk Discussion Groups
>
> http://www.dccadd.com
>
> Craig Sharp wrote in message
> news:2D8867F3082D2ACC2357AE98F746326C@in.WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> > Here is what I got when I clicked on my pointA newsletter link to log on
> to
> > point A...
> >
> > I don't think we're quite there yet, guys.
> >
> > /gotoPointA.jsp:
> >
> > null
> > java.lang.NullPointerException
> > at com.epicentric.common.WebsiteUtils.sendRedirect(WebsiteUtils.java,
> > Compiled Code)
> > at jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf._jspService(jrun__gotoPointA2ejspf.java,
> Compiled
> > Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.jsp.HttpJSPServlet.service(HttpJSPServlet.java, Compiled
> > Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> > at
> >
allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunNamedDispatcher.forward(JRunNamedDispatcher.java,
> > Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.jsp.JSPServlet.service(JSPServlet.java, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.runServlet(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> > at
> >
>
allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunRequestDispatcher.forward(JRunRequestDispatcher.jav
> > a, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JRunSE.service(JRunSE.java, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.servlet.JvmContext.dispatch(JvmContext.java, Compiled
> Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.jrpp.ProxyEndpoint.run(ProxyEndpoint.java, Compiled
Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.ThreadPool.run(ThreadPool.java, Compiled Code)
> > at allaire.jrun.WorkerThread.run(WorkerThread.java, Compiled Code)
> >
> > I just don't think Autodesk is bug free enough for us to rely on their
> > online services.
> >
> > Craig
> >
>
*Sharp, Craig
Message 4 of 7 (178 Views)

Re:

11-21-2000 10:57 PM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Sure... I'm not saying that it's always Autodesk.

I wouldn't want to have to produce real time bug free stuff, either. I can't
even do that with a Word Document!

I sent a more detailed comment directly to Matt on this topic a while back.
For us, this is worthy of discussion. Matt tends to simply defend Autodesk
and, in my opinion, ignore that fact that human beings are managing this
stuff and the deeper you imbed the required information into a human being
bureacracy supported over a scattered distance and group of services, the
more trouble you're asking for as far as we can see. We also don't see his
comments as directly addressing our real world business issues and concerns.

Autodesk can't produce software that is compatable with their own products
without a continual stream of workarounds and updates. The internet only
furthers increases the pace of updating, conflicts, and workarounds. We
would only feel comfortable with the internet model of product and project
support (these are separate but intertwined issues) if we could set up our
installations so that we could automatically update products and projects
through a 'confirmation' service that says "this set of updates for the
products on your computer have been tested and are confirmed to be
compatable with the other products on your computer and are relatively bug
free" or "these project drawings/documents will be sent to your local
installation on a regular basis with replication occuring between all
project sites, merging only the data that has been changed and approved to
be included by the respective responsible collaborative party without the
loss of any individual collabaorative parties' latest efforts".

If you think about the second one for a while and answer how it would be
possible to do this, you would know what our concern is when we consider
entrusting this function (and thereby our liablity) to an offsite third
party. In terms of online product support, the fact that W2K only now won't
allow stupid programming techniques (SPT) to overwrite more current dll's,
etc. with older versions during installation shows why we have a long way to
go, here.
*Dillon, Matt
Message 5 of 7 (178 Views)

Re:

11-21-2000 11:20 PM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Comments below:

Craig Sharp wrote in message
news:681C0BD01182E2C93A335756616A6D5A@in.WebX.SaUCah8kaAW...
> Sure... I'm not saying that it's always Autodesk.
>
> I wouldn't want to have to produce real time bug free stuff, either. I
can't
> even do that with a Word Document!
>
> I sent a more detailed comment directly to Matt on this topic a while
back.
> For us, this is worthy of discussion. Matt tends to simply defend Autodesk
> and, in my opinion, ignore that fact that human beings are managing this
> stuff and the deeper you imbed the required information into a human being
> bureacracy supported over a scattered distance and group of services, the
> more trouble you're asking for as far as we can see. We also don't see his
> comments as directly addressing our real world business issues and
concerns.

By "we" I'll assume that you're referring to yourself, and *your* immediate
network of co-workers. Unless you have been appointed the national
spokesperson for "We, the users of software worldwide". I deal with human
beings, involved in the management of "this stuff" every day, and am
actively involved in helping them deal with the issues that will inevitably
arrise.

Your concerns about "human being bureacracy", whatever that is, goes beyond
the internet and internet-based solutions. Have you ever had a package lost
or delayed by FedEx or UPS? Or had a letter or package lost or delayed by
the post office? Or had a server crash and down time while you restored a
backup?

> Autodesk can't produce software that is compatable with their own products
> without a continual stream of workarounds and updates.The internet only
> furthers increases the pace of updating, conflicts, and workarounds. We
> would only feel comfortable with the internet model of product and project
> support (these are separate but intertwined issues) if we could set up our
> installations so that we could automatically update products and projects
> through a 'confirmation' service that says "this set of updates for the
> products on your computer have been tested and are confirmed to be
> compatable with the other products on your computer and are relatively bug
> free" or "these project drawings/documents will be sent to your local
> installation on a regular basis with replication occuring between all
> project sites, merging only the data that has been changed and approved to
> be included by the respective responsible collaborative party without the
> loss of any individual collabaorative parties' latest efforts".
>
> If you think about the second one for a while and answer how it would be
> possible to do this, you would know what our concern is when we consider
> entrusting this function (and thereby our liablity) to an offsite third
> party.

Your concerns are pretty clear. And believe it or not, I do understand them.
What you are asking for above, however, isn't anything that can currently be
provided for by anyone that I'm aware of, and I'd be extremely skeptical of
anyone claiming to be able to.

What you're asking for is an ironclad guarantee that
A)Your software will always work
B)Installing some other program (yet to be determined) won't break it
C)All data that you receive will be blessed by all controlling authorities
(whoever they may be) and certified to be up to date, accurate and correct
at all times

Talk about a bureacracy...

In terms of online product support, the fact that W2K only now won't
> allow stupid programming techniques (SPT) to overwrite more current dll's,
> etc. with older versions during installation shows why we have a long way
to
> go, here.

Correct. And again, I wouldn't expect it any time in the future. But,
forgive my obtuseness - what has that got to do with ProjectPoint and
on-line collaboration? (Other than the fact that they're software-based
solutions). Your stream of consciousness eludes me.

--
************************************************************************
Please do not send technical requests to me via private email
************************************************************************
Matt Dillon
Assistant Moderator, Autodesk Discussion Groups

http://www.dccadd.com
*Sharp, Craig
Message 6 of 7 (178 Views)

Re:

11-22-2000 05:43 AM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Matt:

I'm a principal in an architectural firm. I speak for the firm. We work as a
team and function as a unit. I use the term >we< in describing our firm's
concerns, practices, etc. I'm 52 years old and have been working with
computers since 1969. I created my first 3D plot using punch cards. I have
written 6 books, numerous articles on the use of software in the AEC
industry, and speak to large groups of AEC industry practitioners about our
firm's bleeding edge experiences. Now I'm going to assume that to you that
is bragging, tooting my own horn, or whatever based upon your statements. I
don't view myself as an expert in spite of these efforts and I certainly am
not so egotistical as to speak for others that I don't represent. I am bound
by professional ethics, understand the proper use of copyright, liability,
negligence, and tort law wherein it applies to the AEC industry. I am
adamantly against UCITA and wish there were ethics and liability for abuse
of the standard of reasonable care with the software industry as there is
for architects and engineers.

I wasn't suggesting this (a coordination agency of human beings) is a good
solution... done by human beings, especially. I'm saying that the process
needs to be verifiable and liability needs to be shared by the software
company providing software updates on a relatively short term cycle over the
internet (I suppose we can disable this feature for all of our users
somehow) or for project management. Without our explicit control of our
practices by the decisions WE choose to make (e.g. we can drive a delivery
ourselves or decide to trust fed ex on the few occasions that we use thieir
service for important deadline delivery) we cannot find a good reason to
adopt a practice, whatever it is. I am, believe me, trying to find a good
reason to use collaborative web project management and ASP's or instant
product fixes over the internet. No one has presented an argument that even
approaches a reasonable avenue for us to consider using such services, rent
software, update our software over the internet, or anything else that may
happen that we haven't even thought of for the internet.

Unlike some others, before I present my thoughts to a group of my peers as
an authority, I want to think carefully about what I'm saying. This is part
of that process. If, by some stretch of the imagination, my opinion about
the use of the internet is asked of me at say, the Virginia AIA annual
conference, it's not looking too positive right now. If someone asks me what
I think of Autodesk providing software updates over the internet, that's not
looking too good, either. But I'm not going to form an opinion until I beat
on this for a while, from both sides of the argument.

Thank you, by the way, for pointing me to the right forum for this topic. I
didn't even know this one existed.

I noted that Bob Green is talking about EDM vs. internet based project
management in Cadence. Some of what he says is what I'm thinking about.

Craig
Anonymous(anon)
Posts: 0
Message 7 of 7 (178 Views)

Re: Another reason not to use online product and project support?

11-22-2000 07:47 AM in reply to: *Sharp, Craig
Mr. Sharp,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. There was an issue with one of our servers for a few hours that resulted in broken links in the Point A newsletter. That issue has been resolved and all of your newsletter links should be working properly now. I hope you find the content in the Point A email newsletter useful, and please let me know if you have any more trouble.

Best Regards,

Linda Decovich
Customer Support, Autodesk Point A
http://pointa.autodesk.com
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