An old dog's new Ferrari?

[erinhood]

I write this topic at the very risk of my job, in order to do a better job....
How do you get an old dog to drive his new Ferrari?
I worked at the same architectural firm for over six years for an very good Architect with a very nice clientele. Since I'm just a worker-bee, drafting construction documents and design coordination & the typical drafting stuff is what I do. I'm NOT an architect.
We recently (Jan 2006) upgraded our hardware and software suites for the office after a six year haul of using very slow pentium 600mhz, or older, machines and plain vanilla AutoCAD R14. I know it sounds ridiculous.. but my job is really good, except for the complete frustration I get from not being allowed to produce as much work as I can. Come on, R14 in the year 2005..? My boss is an Architect, Not a Drafter.
Needles to say, we finally fell behind the compatibility continuum and HAD to upgrade in order to use our consultants' newer file formats or to even produce a pdf!!

Now, we have the shiny new hardware setup and....The bigdaddy ADT2006 licenses!! Finally!... after all these years I can resume using objects instead of being bound to primitives.
WRONG!!
I've stressed on all the ways I know to get ADT implemented and used, but all for not. AutoCAD literacy isn't important somehow. We are still using primitives, and ONLY primitives, because the learning curve is not appealing to the other users(2 architects and another drafter). we've implemented about 3% of our adt capabilities and don't even bother to built models. It's all done transferring lines just like on a drafting board.
How can I make my boss see what he doesn't see without risking my job?

[derek47]

I could not agree more. Their are some companies that have become too comfortable in old standards that when change is inevitable they either fold or go through a desperate learning curve to stay afloat.

I'm not expecting companies using plain Autocad right now to fold but I do see in the near future that these companies will struggle when competing with firms that not only can deliver more consistency but also create a better product.

I've had to fight the preverbal resistance to change not only from management but from seasoned drafters. Sometimes it is not worth the fight and you are better off looking for an environment that is more open to technology. Either way only time will tell but does anyone really think that we will be using 2D autocad to design large commercial projects in 2010? Whatever the software that it may be (ADT, Revit or some other) the industry is moving in this direction.

[Anonymous]

Only CNC machines I used when I made auto part out of bullet aluminum needed
to run from a drafted autocad design. One must draft to design.

wrote in message news:5134485@discussion.autodesk.com...
12 years on the board, 22 years with AutoCAD. Drafting is NOT design, never
was, never will be. Drafting is merely a medium by which designs are
communicated. Drafters that use the tool only as a drafting tool, merely
format someone else's design for plotting. AutoCAD, if used properly, is so
much more than an electronic straight edge, if improperly used, well then
2K6 is no different from R14.


BTW, CNC is an example of design that can be devoid of drafting. It can go
straight from design to coding to fabrication without the need to produce a
single drawing.

[Anonymous]

one must think to design
then one must sketch to draft
then one must draft to build

design is nothing more then a idea or thought in the brain

"cad user" wrote in message
news:5134535@discussion.autodesk.com...
Only CNC machines I used when I made auto part out of bullet aluminum needed
to run from a drafted autocad design. One must draft to design.

wrote in message news:5134485@discussion.autodesk.com...
12 years on the board, 22 years with AutoCAD. Drafting is NOT design, never
was, never will be. Drafting is merely a medium by which designs are
communicated. Drafters that use the tool only as a drafting tool, merely
format someone else's design for plotting. AutoCAD, if used properly, is so
much more than an electronic straight edge, if improperly used, well then
2K6 is no different from R14.


BTW, CNC is an example of design that can be devoid of drafting. It can go
straight from design to coding to fabrication without the need to produce a
single drawing.

[Anonymous]

> then one must draft to build

actually, one must get permits to build... government tellin' ya what to
do! 🙂

[rculp]

Cad user wrote: "" Everything is still lines and arcs.""

As I thought, you're still "drafting" and with a 50 year old mindset at that. Never mind, sorry to have bothered you.

[Anonymous]

I found that the easiest way to get people on your side is pass new
methods along as a trick you just discovered, 1 trick to each person,
then let them communicate these tricks to each other . After a while you
can introduce more "tricks", and before you know it they are following
you around to see what they can learn from you.

wookie wrote:
> Skint, the problem with turning up at a new work place and saying ;
> "Hey guys, you don't know me from a bar of soap, but everything you do is wrong. You should be using these totally forigen techniques..."
> Is that they will respond with;
> "We dont know you from a bar of soap. There's nothing wrong with how we work, its served us well for generations. Your techniques are totally forigen, we don't want anything to do with them."
> However, if you start with putting effort into building relationships with the rignt people. And earning respect for your knowledge of the software and ability to fix small problems. Then it is possible to talk people around to your way of thinking. Like I said, its taken some patience, but I'm getting some traction over 3D. The main stumbling block at the moment is that to do 3D (mechanical) properly it needs to be in cconjunction with xrefs. We have now changed out EDM to one that can cope with xrefs & my proposed xref proceedure has the support of more than half of the designers. Which should make it easy to implement.
> I've also;
> -Re written most of our 1996 CAD Standard,
> -Re drawn all our title blocks
> -Changed our revision box from a block with attributes to a table, which forced everyont to learn how to use tables.
> -Run training courses on emailing drawings, viewports, blocks, tool palletes, tables, and so on.
> -But the most effective training is one on one.
> -Two staff paid me directly for extra 3D training during the Christmas break. (but not the one I needed to crack to get 3D to become routine instead of unusual)
> -Changed the way we dimension,
> -Made the drawing scale a field linked to the viewport in our template drawings. Which forced everyone to learn about fields.
> And thats off the top of my head.
> Now I'm a full time project designer with no official cad management responsibility. So this kind of thing has to fit around my design workload, so it gets put on the back burner when I'm busy.
>
> Skint, I think you give up too easily.

[Anonymous]

Great site... Lee lives just around the corner from me!

--
Craig
_______________
Dreamers don't have strategic grill locations...


"Don Reichle" wrote in message
news:5133772@discussion.autodesk.com...
snip>Personally, as far as vanilla AutoCad goes, there's not a big
difference between R14 and 2006.

If you REALLY think that way, you might want to get acquainted with just HOW
MUCH has changed, by perusing this site;
http://www.hyperpics.com/commands/

HTH

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse
than training your staff,
and having them leave is -
not training your staff,
and having them stay."
Courtesy Graphics Solution Providers
----------------------------------------------------------
C3D/LDT/CD/SVY-2K6
AMD XP 3200+ 2.2GHz
XPPro 32bit SP2
1GB RAM
Nvidia GeForce4 MX 4000 128MB



"cad user" wrote in message
news:5132463@discussion.autodesk.com...
It's the year 2006 by the way.
Personally, as far as vanilla AutoCad goes, there's not a big difference
between R14 and 2006. It's still a drafting tool and can be used exactly
the same. Only two major improvements since R14 are realtime pan and zoom.
As far as ADT goes though, if you're paying for it you should be using it,
otherwise there was no point in buying it. Just tell him that.

wrote in message news:5131961@discussion.autodesk.com...
I write this topic at the very risk of my job, in order to do a better
job....
How do you get an old dog to drive his new Ferrari?
I worked at the same architectural firm for over six years for an very good
Architect with a very nice clientele. Since I'm just a worker-bee, drafting
construction documents and design coordination & the typical drafting stuff
is what I do. I'm NOT an architect.
We recently (Jan 2006) upgraded our hardware and software suites for the
office after a six year haul of using very slow pentium 600mhz, or older,
machines and plain vanilla AutoCAD R14. I know it sounds ridiculous.. but my
job is really good, except for the complete frustration I get from not being
allowed to produce as much work as I can. Come on, R14 in the year 2005..?
My boss is an Architect, Not a Drafter.
Needles to say, we finally fell behind the compatibility continuum and HAD
to upgrade in order to use our consultants' newer file formats or to even
produce a pdf!!

Now, we have the shiny new hardware setup and....The bigdaddy ADT2006
licenses!! Finally!... after all these years I can resume using objects
instead of being bound to primitives.
WRONG!!
I've stressed on all the ways I know to get ADT implemented and used, but
all for not. AutoCAD literacy isn't important somehow. We are still using
primitives, and ONLY primitives, because the learning curve is not appealing
to the other users(2 architects and another drafter). we've implemented
about 3% of our adt capabilities and don't even bother to built models. It's
all done transferring lines just like on a drafting board.
How can I make my boss see what he doesn't see without risking my job?

[Anonymous]

and I thought the best feature was going from a whole bunch of 3.25"
floppies to 1CD

Or the Worst Feature since R14............The Today
Window!!!.........thankfully removed.


"Grizzly" wrote in message
news:5134632@discussion.autodesk.com...
> then one must draft to build

actually, one must get permits to build... government tellin' ya what to
do! 🙂

[wookie]

Fair enough. I think because it only occupies a small amount of my time, the frustration is bearable. Sometimes I think they should make me a proper CAD manager & give me the authority to set things up properly. Then I think I'd like to keep my youthful good looks for a year or two longer, and pull my head in again.
I do wonder if our users are more receptive than I give them credit for though.
Did you see my post in the Argh....Users thread? Thats Old dog #2. He spent and hour or so with OD1 this afternoon, imparting his 3D skills.

[Anonymous]

Just chill, I guess you think Autodesk has reinvented the wheel too. I'm
sure you get all your drafting/design done without using any lines or arcs
(beit polylines, multilines, etc, spelled out for you)
wrote in message news:5134794@discussion.autodesk.com...
Cad user wrote: "" Everything is still lines and arcs.""

As I thought, you're still "drafting" and with a 50 year old mindset at
that. Never mind, sorry to have bothered you.

[Anonymous]

Right on! Dustin gets it.

"Dustin" wrote in message
news:5134598@discussion.autodesk.com...
one must think to design
then one must sketch to draft
then one must draft to build

design is nothing more then a idea or thought in the brain

"cad user" wrote in message
news:5134535@discussion.autodesk.com...
Only CNC machines I used when I made auto part out of bullet aluminum needed
to run from a drafted autocad design. One must draft to design.

wrote in message news:5134485@discussion.autodesk.com...
12 years on the board, 22 years with AutoCAD. Drafting is NOT design, never
was, never will be. Drafting is merely a medium by which designs are
communicated. Drafters that use the tool only as a drafting tool, merely
format someone else's design for plotting. AutoCAD, if used properly, is so
much more than an electronic straight edge, if improperly used, well then
2K6 is no different from R14.


BTW, CNC is an example of design that can be devoid of drafting. It can go
straight from design to coding to fabrication without the need to produce a
single drawing.

[rculp]

I'm as cool as a cucumber, and I haven't drawn a line or an arc (poly, multi or otherwise, that was not already in a block) in several years. But then I haven't been a "drafter" in a couple of decades either. We've been a full 3D design shop for quite some time, lines and arcs do nothing for us.

Look you wanna chase your little lines and arcs around the screen with your fancy electronic straight-edge and stay rooted in the 1970's, then go right ahead. But your claim that the software hasn't improved since R14 makes you look like an idiot. Now if that is your intent, I'm sorry to have bothered you, carry on.

[Anonymous]

We use to do grid site volume calcs on large sites by hand. A 5 acre site
could take 2-3 days w/ backchecking. I showed my boss how I can get the
volume in less than a day by building a finished ground surface.

Find the difficult, time consuming tasks & show your boss how it can be done
in a fraction of the time.

John

[rculp]

"" Only CNC machines I used when I made auto part out of bullet aluminum needed to run from a drafted autocad design. ""

Then maybe you need to be exposed to a lot more CNC control.


"" One must draft to design.""

Not only wrong, but waayyy wrong. At present I have a couple of reams of design spread out on my desk that hasn't required the first bit of drafting. To communicate some of that design to our fabricators, we may (or may not) need to produce drawings, but much of it will never require drafting. You see design is so much more than drafting, the "design" has produced information that will be used by engineering, purchasing, transportation, scheduling, fabrication, construction, and facility management that will not require drafting of any kind. Only a small part of the "design" requires drafting.

[rculp]

"" one must think to design ""

With that, I agree.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" then one must sketch to draft ""

Sorry, haven't sketched in years

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" then one must draft to build ""

Not even close. Our machine end takes 3D models straight to CNC encoding and. And some of our structural work goes from FEA to fabrication without a single drawing.

30 years ago your statements were sort of accurate, but for many of us those days are long gone.

[Anonymous]

Ok, I get it. Sorry, but in the civil field
we need to create our drawings from scratch. Every job is different and we
need to be creative. I assume by your lack of AutoCad knowledge that you
are in the architectural field and you don't get much hands on experience.
Surely a person of your advanced age must be in a management position as I
can tell by how out of touch you are with reality. I'm glad that you can
just wave a magic wand and create blocks. That probably explains why it is
every time I deal with any Architectural drawing it is full of garbage. I
take an architects 5mg drawing and get it down to 340k just by removing all
the junk. Then we must redraw everything correctly because they have no
idea how to draft. You have clearly explained that to me. You don't draft
with AutoCad, I guess no architects do.

wrote in message news:5135534@discussion.autodesk.com...
I'm as cool as a cucumber, and I haven't drawn a line or an arc (poly, multi
or otherwise, that was not already in a block) in several years. But then I
haven't been a "drafter" in a couple of decades either. We've been a full
3D design shop for quite some time, lines and arcs do nothing for us.

Look you wanna chase your little lines and arcs around the screen with your
fancy electronic straight-edge and stay rooted in the 1970's, then go right
ahead. But your claim that the software hasn't improved since R14 makes you
look like an idiot. Now if that is your intent, I'm sorry to have bothered
you, carry on. Message was edited by: Discussion Admin

[Anonymous]

You need to think outside the box a little. By sketch I didn't mean on a
piece of paper, I meant on the computer. You can sketch up Ideas in the cad
programs you know. Also by draft, I do not mean the old days of drafting.
But going from design to full blow production CD's. You draft up the details
and things you need to build your design. An open mind is a wonderful thing,
but a closed mind with blinds on you might as well run the Kentucky derby.

wrote in message news:5136018@discussion.autodesk.com...
"" one must think to design ""

With that, I agree.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" then one must sketch to draft ""

Sorry, haven't sketched in years

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"" then one must draft to build ""

Not even close. Our machine end takes 3D models straight to CNC encoding
and. And some of our structural work goes from FEA to fabrication without a
single drawing.

30 years ago your statements were sort of accurate, but for many of us those
days are long gone.

[rculp]

Instead of hurling lame insults try stating the facts of your position, if you're capable of doing so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" but in the civil field ""

I do Civil and Structural
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" we need to create our drawings from scratch ""

As do we.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" Every job is different ""

As are ours.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" we need to be creative ""

As do we.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" I assume by your lack of AutoCad knowledge ""

now that's funny, this from a guy that claims there's no difference between R14 and 2K6??? I'll throw down AutoCAD knowledge with you any day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" you are in the architectural ""

Wrong yet again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" you don't get much hands on experience ""

Wrong, again, batting a thousand there "Lightening".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" I'm glad that you can just wave a magic wand and create blocks.""

Not really magic, just LISP and VBA. It's really pretty easy, you ought to try it someday.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"" You don't draft with AutoCad ""

No I don't, I design with it. So do nearly all the designers I know, though I hear there are a few sad cad monkeys left out there that can only draft with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sorry you haven't the stature to work with decent Architects and you're relegated to working with hacks, but that doesn't have any bearing on the current discussion.
If you're really wasting that much time with the drawings you get from Architects, you really need to tighten up your contract.

[Anonymous]

I design Automotive after market components, and never drafted a single component. Design the lot directly in 3D from an image in
my mind (and a few measurements from the relevant vehicle).

*I* design without drafting. Wanna argue?

John Bilton
--
"It seemed like a good idea at the time..."

[fxcastil]

Dustin

Where do you live here in Southern California a house that used to cost $50k now cost $900k. $100k in southern California will but you 1/2 of a garage which needs paint and a new roof, and definitely does not include a car.