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Image Insertion

14 REPLIES 14
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Message 1 of 15
Anonymous
1012 Views, 14 Replies

Image Insertion

When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
14 REPLIES 14
Message 2 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

We automatically select the right coordinate system
whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
to the last manually selected coordinate system
(or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote in message
news:5763790@discussion.autodesk.com...
When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 3 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

A NUTM is a utm coord in the zone north of the equator.

http://welcome.warnercnr.colostate.edu/class_info/nr502/lg3/datums_coordinates/utm.html

dave



"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764333@discussion.autodesk.com...
We automatically select the right coordinate system
whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
to the last manually selected coordinate system
(or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote in message
news:5763790@discussion.autodesk.com...
When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 4 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt Osborn wrote:
> We automatically select the right coordinate system
> whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
> tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
> We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
> exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
> to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
> When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
> to the last manually selected coordinate system
> (or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Thanks for the explanation Matt.
Do you plan to support tags such as NAD83 NUTM14 now that
you have a resource for figuring them out, or should we ask
our image provider to adhere to some published standard? If
so, what standard?


--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 5 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Thanks Dave. But we are well aware of what UTM is.
(Mentor and EPSG don't appear to use the acronym "NUTM")

I've oversimplified the situation in my example. RK didn't
say what image type he is working with, but let's assume
we're talking about a GeoTIFF. The header of the GeoTIFF
must contain a valid ProjectedCSTypeGeoKey. Most of the
time we can map this EPSG code to a Mentor CS code that
AutoCAD understands (it's not always possible, as there's not
a one-to-one mapping between the systems). If the image
doesn't have that key, or it's an invalid/unknown key, or we
can't map it, then we present the user with as much as we do
know. Often this is just a text citation from the header (which
is what I'm guessing "NAD83 NUTM14" is). We're not going
to do a fuzzy-logic string compare and try to guess what the
intended CS is. So in cases like that, it's up to user to select the CS.

Matt

"David Parker" wrote in message
news:5764375@discussion.autodesk.com...
A NUTM is a utm coord in the zone north of the equator.

http://welcome.warnercnr.colostate.edu/class_info/nr502/lg3/datums_coordinates/utm.html

dave



"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764333@discussion.autodesk.com...
We automatically select the right coordinate system
whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
to the last manually selected coordinate system
(or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote in message
news:5763790@discussion.autodesk.com...
When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 6 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

If it's a GeoTIFF then it has to use a standard EPSG code.
If you could send me your image I can take a look at it
and let you know what's wrong with it. If you can't send it,
I can send you a commandline utility that you can run on the
image to extract the information we need from its header.

Thanks,

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote

Thanks for the explanation Matt.
Do you plan to support tags such as NAD83 NUTM14 now that
you have a resource for figuring them out, or should we ask
our image provider to adhere to some published standard? If
so, what standard?


--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 7 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

That's Ok. I didn,t. So what is Mentor and EPSG relative to this
discussion? This sounds like a similar probem I have had with some photos
(SID) not spitting the information out freely

Thanks


Dave


"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764835@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks Dave. But we are well aware of what UTM is.
(Mentor and EPSG don't appear to use the acronym "NUTM")

I've oversimplified the situation in my example. RK didn't
say what image type he is working with, but let's assume
we're talking about a GeoTIFF. The header of the GeoTIFF
must contain a valid ProjectedCSTypeGeoKey. Most of the
time we can map this EPSG code to a Mentor CS code that
AutoCAD understands (it's not always possible, as there's not
a one-to-one mapping between the systems). If the image
doesn't have that key, or it's an invalid/unknown key, or we
can't map it, then we present the user with as much as we do
know. Often this is just a text citation from the header (which
is what I'm guessing "NAD83 NUTM14" is). We're not going
to do a fuzzy-logic string compare and try to guess what the
intended CS is. So in cases like that, it's up to user to select the CS.

Matt

"David Parker" wrote in message
news:5764375@discussion.autodesk.com...
A NUTM is a utm coord in the zone north of the equator.

http://welcome.warnercnr.colostate.edu/class_info/nr502/lg3/datums_coordinates/utm.html

dave



"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764333@discussion.autodesk.com...
We automatically select the right coordinate system
whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
to the last manually selected coordinate system
(or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote in message
news:5763790@discussion.autodesk.com...
When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 8 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt Osborn wrote:
> If it's a GeoTIFF then it has to use a standard EPSG code.
> If you could send me your image I can take a look at it
> and let you know what's wrong with it. If you can't send it,
> I can send you a commandline utility that you can run on the
> image to extract the information we need from its header.

It's a 2GB ECW file. Better send me the utility.


--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 9 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

They are two standards for coordinate systems.
EPSG stands for European Petroleum Survey Group:

http://www.epsg.org/

AutoCAD (Map) has always used the CS library from Mentor Software:

http://www.mentorsoftwareinc.com/

As you'll see from their new home page, Mentor was recently acquired by
Autodesk.
You can still access the content from their old site:

http://www.mentorsoftwareinc.com/faq/faq.htm

Matt

"David Parker" wrote in message
news:5764901@discussion.autodesk.com...
That's Ok. I didn,t. So what is Mentor and EPSG relative to this
discussion? This sounds like a similar probem I have had with some photos
(SID) not spitting the information out freely

Thanks


Dave


"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764835@discussion.autodesk.com...
Thanks Dave. But we are well aware of what UTM is.
(Mentor and EPSG don't appear to use the acronym "NUTM")

I've oversimplified the situation in my example. RK didn't
say what image type he is working with, but let's assume
we're talking about a GeoTIFF. The header of the GeoTIFF
must contain a valid ProjectedCSTypeGeoKey. Most of the
time we can map this EPSG code to a Mentor CS code that
AutoCAD understands (it's not always possible, as there's not
a one-to-one mapping between the systems). If the image
doesn't have that key, or it's an invalid/unknown key, or we
can't map it, then we present the user with as much as we do
know. Often this is just a text citation from the header (which
is what I'm guessing "NAD83 NUTM14" is). We're not going
to do a fuzzy-logic string compare and try to guess what the
intended CS is. So in cases like that, it's up to user to select the CS.

Matt

"David Parker" wrote in message
news:5764375@discussion.autodesk.com...
A NUTM is a utm coord in the zone north of the equator.

http://welcome.warnercnr.colostate.edu/class_info/nr502/lg3/datums_coordinates/utm.html

dave



"Matt Osborn" wrote in message
news:5764333@discussion.autodesk.com...
We automatically select the right coordinate system
whenever possible. In this case, the image file has a CS
tag that says "NAD83 NUTM14" (what's a "NUTM"?).
We don't understand that one, so we let the user know
exactly what the image reports and leave it up to him
to figure out the proper mapping to Mentor codes.
When we don't know the mapping, that edit box defaults
to the last manually selected coordinate system
(or, if you've never selected one before, "LL").

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote in message
news:5763790@discussion.autodesk.com...
When inserting an image using Raster Design, on the Source
tab, the Coorelation Source is "Image File", and the
Coordinate System is "NAD83 NUTM14".

I switch to the Transform tab, and click "Transform to
drawing's coordinate system". In the pane above this, the
coordinate system of the drawing is correctly reflected. In
the pane above that, the Image coordinate system (NAD83
NUTM14) is once again shown to me in text, but the code in
the edit box is "LL".

Why do I have to go and select the image zone as "UTM83-14"?
If Raster Design knows the zone from the image (NAD83
NUTM14), why can't it figure out "UTM83-14"?

Is it just not meant to do that?
Are the image makers using the wrong codes?

TIA

--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 10 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

I'm afraid I don't have a tool for ECW files.
ER Mapper may provide free utilities for viewing/editing ECW headers.
You'll notice from their website that their ECW format has fallen out of
favor... they are now pushing the non-proprietary JPEG2000 format.
Raster Design will read the correlation data from GeoJP2 files (as that just
uses an embedded GeoTIFF header).

Matt

"R.K. McSwain" wrote
Matt Osborn wrote:
> If it's a GeoTIFF then it has to use a standard EPSG code.
> If you could send me your image I can take a look at it
> and let you know what's wrong with it. If you can't send it,
> I can send you a commandline utility that you can run on the
> image to extract the information we need from its header.

It's a 2GB ECW file. Better send me the utility.


--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 11 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt Osborn wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't have a tool for ECW files.
> ER Mapper may provide free utilities for viewing/editing ECW headers.
> You'll notice from their website that their ECW format has fallen out of
> favor... they are now pushing the non-proprietary JPEG2000 format.
> Raster Design will read the correlation data from GeoJP2 files (as that just
> uses an embedded GeoTIFF header).

Talking to our GIS department (ESRI users), they say that
ECW is a standard aerial format and "fallen out of
favor...to JPEG2000" is not an accurate statement.

Anyway, what is strange is that when you load the same image
in ArcMap, the zone is displayed as "NAD_1983_UTM_Zone_14N",
not "NAD83 NUTM14".

I don't know where Raster Design is getting "NAD83 NUTM14" from.

Our image vendor will be here in a couple of weeks.
Hopefully we can find out some more info.



--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 12 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

"R.K. McSwain" wrote
>Matt Osborn wrote:
>> I'm afraid I don't have a tool for ECW files.
>> ER Mapper may provide free utilities for viewing/editing ECW headers.
>> You'll notice from their website that their ECW format has fallen out of
>> favor... they are now pushing the non-proprietary JPEG2000 format.
>> Raster Design will read the correlation data from GeoJP2 files (as that
>> just
>> uses an embedded GeoTIFF header).
>
>Talking to our GIS department (ESRI users), they say that
>ECW is a standard aerial format and "fallen out of
>favor...to JPEG2000" is not an accurate statement.

I believe you've misunderstood. I'm not talking about current usage
in the GIS community. I explicitly referred to ER Mapper, the owner
of the ECW format. All of their latest compression tools and libraries
are focused on JPEG2000 (with ECW has an afterthought).
But you don't need to take my word for it... just go to their website
and see for yourself.

Matt
Message 13 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt Osborn wrote:
> I believe you've misunderstood. I'm not talking about current usage
> in the GIS community. I explicitly referred to ER Mapper, the owner
> of the ECW format. All of their latest compression tools and libraries
> are focused on JPEG2000 (with ECW has an afterthought).
> But you don't need to take my word for it... just go to their website
> and see for yourself.
>

Ok, be that as it may.... What ER Mapper thinks or does, I
don't really care about.

What we do care about is being able to easily import aerial
images into AutoCAD.

Using ArcMap, it's a simple drag/drop from Windows Explorer.
AutoCAD MAP can't do it at all, and using Raster Design, the
user must know the image coordinate system.

My whole point in this thread is why can't an Autodesk
product read the coordinate system from the image and place
it accordingly. I shouldn't have to care about the image
format, file extension, etc., etc.

Thanks.


--
R.K. McSwain
http://rkmcswain.blogspot.com
Message 14 of 15
Anonymous
in reply to: Anonymous

Matt:

For what its worth, JPEG2000 is not the primary focus of ER Mapper. As a long time user of the ER Mapper software, I have observed that the ECW format is just as well supported in the ER Mapper software as is the JPEG2000 format. Considering that applications able to write JPEG2000 images rarely do so in a standardized way, I argue that the JPEG2000 format is not quite where it could be and other formats are more often usable.

My concern is not so much the JPEG2000 verses ECW issue, but rather why Autodesk's Civil 3d/Map and Raster Design (v.2008) products poorly support the ECW format. Both the Data Connect and Raster Design Image Insert commands have problems in handling ECW format images. At the very least, Autodesk could provide a realistic time estimate on when the problems with ECW support will be resolved, or even if there is a plan to correct these problems.

Thanks for your time,
Paul Lohr
Message 15 of 15
davey
in reply to: Anonymous

did ths get resolved?  apparently the nutm is still an issue map does not know what to do with

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