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Ductwork with MEP 2012

19 REPLIES 19
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Message 1 of 20
kpalczyk
1428 Views, 19 Replies

Ductwork with MEP 2012

Not a big fan of the ductwork controls with AutoCAD MEP 2012. Is there anyway to change it back tot he old way with 2012?

19 REPLIES 19
Message 2 of 20
VermontCAD
in reply to: kpalczyk

I sure hope so.  Trying to edit duct now is a nightmare!

Message 3 of 20
Keith.Brown
in reply to: VermontCAD

I am willing to bet that the answer is no.  They did the same thing with piping and you can't go back with it.  It is just something you will have to get used.

Message 4 of 20
VermontCAD
in reply to: kpalczyk

thats what my re-seller is telling me....no way back now.

 

anyone else noticed how cumbersome it is editing duct now?  that change has to be the worst thing i have ever seen!

Message 5 of 20
rmiller1973
in reply to: VermontCAD

 


@VermontCAD wrote:

thats what my re-seller is telling me....no way back now.

 

anyone else noticed how cumbersome it is editing duct now?  that change has to be the worst thing i have ever seen!


 

I think it is easier in some aspects to edit ductwork. Being able to make changes to and see the transition values is an added bonus. I also believe it is easier to change the width and height values of a run from off of the properties palette. Most of the default settings are included on the properties palette or the duct routing preferences (which is nice to see it was added) ... the new run button is still available at the bottom of the properties palette as well.

 

However, I think they took a step back when it comes to editing elbows ... I feel it should have been able to easily recognize that a rectangular duct can use a mitered and smooth radius elbow. In doing so allow those to be easily assigned through a drop down instead of the mvpart dialog box. I'm also surprised I didn't notice this before but the current size doesn't get passed over to the possible elbow type change - for example, an 18x10 Mitered elbow that will be switched to 18x10 Smooth radius takes you to the Oval elbow section first and when switched to smooth radius the 18x10 settings have to be re-inputted (which could be problematic if you don't remember the original values).

 

In older versions the height and width settings would normally be passed as long as the part had the same sizes available ...

Message 6 of 20
VermontCAD
in reply to: kpalczyk

So you think it is easier to, for instance, click on 60 peices of duct (straight peices and elbows) then edit the size as opposed to, in 2011, clicking on the transition (or any one peice for that matter) and editing the size you want to and have the program ask if you want to continue the size to the next transition?  Seems easier to me to click one peice instead of 60 (for instance).  Now if you try clicking on just one peice like we used to be able to, the program forces transitions without asking.  Seems like a makor step back to me.

Message 7 of 20
rmiller1973
in reply to: VermontCAD

 


@VermontCAD wrote:

So you think it is easier to, for instance, click on 60 peices of duct (straight peices and elbows) then edit the size as opposed to, in 2011, clicking on the transition (or any one peice for that matter) and editing the size you want to and have the program ask if you want to continue the size to the next transition?  Seems easier to me to click one peice instead of 60 (for instance).  Now if you try clicking on just one peice like we used to be able to, the program forces transitions without asking.  Seems like a makor step back to me.


 

I guess it will no longer ask if you want to change a run size going to each transition but you can still select a single duct or elbow, righ-click and find 'Modify Run' ...

 

Modify Run.jpg

 

You can then change the full run based on any of the values listed above. If you are changing the width - it looks like it will follow the run until it finds a change in height or width (ie, 28x10 is viewed differently than 28x8). If you select a duct and you are changing the system type it look like it will follow the full run until if tracks down another change in system type (ie. if exhaust is connected to return and you select the exhaust to try to change the return section it won't work, however if you select the return to change to exhaust it will grab the full run of return).

 

It uses a different process that will take some getting used to but I actually like that it isn't asking at every transition. You still have the ability to select one item and make a wholesale change.

 

 

Message 8 of 20
VermontCAD
in reply to: rmiller1973

Wow....I will have to pass this along to my re-sellers "duct expert".  He told me the only way to modify a big run without the program forcing transitions was to do it the way I described, picking each peice.  Thank you so much for this!

Message 9 of 20
ahollinger81
in reply to: VermontCAD

So it works for some things, but how on earth do you change a elbow to be a transitioned elbow, that goes from say 12x10 for the first connection, and the other connection be 10x8.  THis was easy to do in 2011, you would right click and go through the modify fitting thing.  In 2012 when selecting the MV part dialog, I can select all and choose a transition elbow, but whenever I try to assign a new RW2 Value it resets to be the same as RW1 immediately.  I can't imagine that I'm going to keep using 2011 and probably tell our MEP department to stay with 2011 with these kinds of bugs and oversights.

Message 10 of 20

>>However, I think they took a step back when it comes to editing elbows ... I feel it should have been able to easily recognize that a rectangular duct can use a mitered and smooth radius elbow.

 

Just as in previous releases, in 2012, you can 'swich' the elbow you are routing 'on the fly'... click the 'Fitting Settings', and select which elbow you want.  However, I can see that this appears a bit more 'burried' compared to previous releases.

 

I think the easiest way to deal with this, avoid having to 'dig' into the Fitting Settings to toggle between mitered/radius, is to define two routing preferences... one with mitered, the other with radius.  Then, as you route, you only need to change the routing preference for the next elbow to come in with the alternate shape.  You can also use this routing prefrence to change the shape afterwards and avoid the part selection dialog.  See this video: http://screencast.com/t/NpjKs0Qw1h

 



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 11 of 20
VermontCAD
in reply to: ahollinger81


@ahollinger81 wrote:

So it works for some things, but how on earth do you change a elbow to be a transitioned elbow, that goes from say 12x10 for the first connection, and the other connection be 10x8.  THis was easy to do in 2011, you would right click and go through the modify fitting thing.  In 2012 when selecting the MV part dialog, I can select all and choose a transition elbow, but whenever I try to assign a new RW2 Value it resets to be the same as RW1 immediately.  I can't imagine that I'm going to keep using 2011 and probably tell our MEP department to stay with 2011 with these kinds of bugs and oversights.


 Having formerly worked in the field as a sheet metal worker I curse you for putting such a fitting in a drawing.Smiley Happy

Message 12 of 20

Can you be more specific about which fitting you are trying to use? 



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 13 of 20
ahollinger81
in reply to: VermontCAD

It's the Rectangular duct transition elbow US imperial.  I can place one of these properly if I set the elbow down with the connections, and draw ducts leaving the elbow in both directions.  This isn't all that convienient if the duct is turning up, or down though as I have to rotate3d.  2011 let you draw a regular elbow onto a duct, then edit fitting, change it to the mitered transition elbow, and the edit the width of the second connection, and it worked.  I can make it work in 2012, but it doesn't work consistantly.  Bassically if I try to change the size about 4 different times it eventually will.

Message 14 of 20

I was able to reproduce this... I will log the issue.

 

Thank you.



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 15 of 20
cmartin
in reply to: kpalczyk

Wow Autodesk you have now made drawing ductwork take twice as long and some functions basically impossible.  The program is nearly useless to us now.

 

The old dialogue box allowed (when drawing a new duct or modifying a previously drawn one) changing size, shape, connection type (a feature that was never useful) system, etc, etc.   Also allowed easy access to a built in duct flow and pressure drop calculation (ductulator).  Now im back to the old, and inacurate cardboard wheel or a separate program?

 

The modify connector/fitting dialogue box was cumbersome yet after getting used to it one is able to get the job done quickly enough.  Now it sounds like not only is it more cumbersome but in some cases it does not even work?!

 

Comon guys for the costs of this software we expect more...

Message 16 of 20
rmiller1973
in reply to: cmartin

Everything and a little bit more is now accessable from the properties palette. If anything, once you get used to going to the properties palette it is more useful.

 

In older versions (tested in 2010) if you connected two diffuser that had a flow value of 350 CFM and selected the connecting duct you were forced to open the modify duct dialog to check the CFM level. In 2012 you can simply select the duct and look on the properties palette and that information is readily available.

 

You are having the same reaction that many had when they first started to remove the dedicated dialog boxes. In the end once you get used to going to the properties palette I'm sure you will find the added information more useful without the added step of opening the modify duct dialog box - including the never useful system property.

Message 17 of 20
cmartin
in reply to: kpalczyk

Ok i missed some stuff and in looking further i see it now.  But it would be nice to add the FPM and pressure loss values to the "Modify Run" dialogue box.  Rather than relying on hidden system properties which are only changeable in the system properties setup that take time to get to.

 

I am primarily frustrated by the lack of functionality in being able to change fitting types....elbows etc without going into the routing prefrences.

 

I will say it appears offseting takeoffs has been much improved it appears....

Message 18 of 20
Martin__Schmid
in reply to: cmartin

For Modify Run, it sounds like your goal is to re-size duct per 'flexible' FPM or PD inputs.  While I can appreciate wanting to have these additional inputs for duct sizing, the 'modify run' command is really more generic to all 'runs' (conduit, pipe, etc..) which have no flow.  The 'Calculate Duct Sizes' command allows you to 'override' the specified system's Flow and PD parameters without having to dig into and modify the 'hidden' system properties... to try it, simply select a duct, and on the Duct context ribbon tab, you should see Calculate Duct Size

 

You don't need to go into Routing Preferences to change Fitting types, you can do it by clicking on the Properties Palette 'Part' preview image (after you already have parts inserted), or from Fitting Settings (on the Properties Palette) while adding duct.... It's not immediately obvious, but it is there.

 

If you are still looking for where the 'old' UI elements ended up in the new UI, see the attached blog post... I *think* it covers everything:

http://inside-the-system.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/08/new-duct-user-interface-in-autocad-mep-2012.h...

 

HTH,

MS



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 19 of 20

Spoiler
 

Have you tried the service pack to see if it resolved this issue?

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=17813065&linkID=9240938

 



Martin Schmid
Product Line Manager
Mechanical Detailing and Electrical Design
Architecture, Engineering, and Construction
Autodesk, Inc.

Message 20 of 20
Kayrondad
in reply to: Martin__Schmid

I don't care what anyones says, getting rid of one way of doing things without the option of reverting to our learned method is ridiculous.  We spend WAYYYYY too much money on this product to feel comfortable in continuing to do so...then you add the nearly mandatory subscription and fees to force us to stay with the current trends or pay back charges for every year we did not upgrade...that is monopolization and crooked marketing in my opinion and if it were not for the necessitiy of CAD in the trades, i would scrap this crap and call you all fools....but then again, what would one expect from a Bay Area California company floating on such large pay checks and outsourcing to India...go figure.

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