Jody your funny... the thing is I think that you really mean it when you say these things, but you're still one of the greatest pioneers of the building systems program... it's because of folks like you that this will be a great program someday. -- Anyway, to answer your question.. I'm now Managing a CAD crew... Which is more my expertise than using ABS. They are using ABS3 here but not in the way that it was intended to be used. they barely take advantage of it's abilities. I will slowly try to move us into using ABS2004... but I need to focus on productivity first... especially since I'm the new guy and if productivity goes down, then I'll be the fall guy. -- this new job is closer to home and had more to offer. I've been in a state of transition between the two jobs and starting next week I'll be here at C3 full time. -- This discussion group is a great source of information... even if it's just to find out that ABS doesn't do something that we all would like it to do. So I'll be watching the threads so that I can learn as much as possible. Remember I'm fairly new to MEP and ABS.