Modeling Pipes to Ponds

[10sNut]

I'm a first time user of LDD Civil for Hydrograph routing. I'm currently working on a project that has multiple small Subareas, an elaborate pipe network, and interconnected ponds. Can anyone give me an abbreviated way of modeling my subareas so that I can input different rainfall amounts for 24 hour storm events, without reinventing the wheel each time?

My predeveloped site has very few pipes and big drainage channels, so modeling the subareas and the downstream subareas was easy, but it appears that the Tr-55 tabular spreadsheet "Downstream Subareas" column can only handle so many characters. It is possible to use an Ascii symbol to include more than 3 or 4 alpha-numeric subareas?

Thank you in advance.

[Anonymous]

Hey 10s; I do so hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most people are not in the habit of advising others to use LDT's Hydrology package. There are some quirks in its current calculation routines. Pond Stage Storage being one of them. It will probably be money well spent to investigate some of the other Hydrology/Hydraulics software on the market. I would recommend this one, as have others on the discussion group recently... http://www.intelisolve.com/stormsew.html and they also do hydrographs... http://www.intelisolve.com/hydrographs.html I've had the chance to use the piping modeler, and was able to produce output to satisfy the City of Watsonville, CA requirements for reports. The program allows the use of DXF files to import/export data between AutoCAD. -- Don Reichle "King Of Work-Arounds" LDT3 - SP1/CD3 - SP1 On WIN2K SP4 Dell 1.6 Ghz P4 512MB RAM NVIDIA 32MB AGP "10sNut" wrote in message news:17258429.1108678958194.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > I'm a first time user of LDD Civil for Hydrograph routing. I'm currently working on a project that has multiple small Subareas, an elaborate pipe network, and interconnected ponds. Can anyone give me an abbreviated way of modeling my subareas so that I can input different rainfall amounts for 24 hour storm events, without reinventing the wheel each time? > > My predeveloped site has very few pipes and big drainage channels, so modeling the subareas and the downstream subareas was easy, but it appears that the Tr-55 tabular spreadsheet "Downstream Subareas" column can only handle so many characters. It is possible to use an Ascii symbol to include more than 3 or 4 alpha-numeric subareas? > > Thank you in advance.

[10sNut]

Thanks for the reply Don.

I have been using the Intellisolve products for the past 5 years, and you are correct in your statement that it does satisfy the requirements for most municipalities, but I was really hoping to use this particular software due to the fact that my company has spent money on it.

Aaron

[Anonymous]

Don, It appears that you have an opinion on everything regardless of whether you actually read the question at hand, have accurate information in your reply, are using the same version of software, or are offering something constructive . He's talking about routing linked subareas across a site - not doing pond calcs or routing through elaborate pipe systems. I use the TR-55 portion of LDT all the time with excellent results and satisfactory reviews. The stage-storage calcs are fine - there is a problem using orifices in the stage-discharge portion so I use my own home brewed Excel spreadsheet to create my .sdc files. I'd be very careful in extrapolating your views to being that 'of most people'. I'm certainly not one of them, and I suspect there are others out there who are using all or part of the built in hydrology tools to do their work. If you have an opinion, state it as your own - don't project it as that of a group unless they are willing to stand behind your claims. As for the original question, I'm a little confused on what he is actually asking. I need a little more information before I can make an accurate, constructive reply - but don't let that stop you..... -- Karl Fuls PLS Autocad AEC Training and Consulting Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator Don Reichle wrote: >Hey 10s; > >I do so hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most people are not in the >habit of advising others to use LDT's Hydrology package. There are some >quirks in its current calculation routines. Pond Stage Storage being one of >them. > >It will probably be money well spent to investigate some of the other >Hydrology/Hydraulics software on the market. I would recommend this one, as >have others on the discussion group recently... >http://www.intelisolve.com/stormsew.html >and they also do hydrographs... >http://www.intelisolve.com/hydrographs.html > >I've had the chance to use the piping modeler, and was able to produce >output to satisfy the City of Watsonville, CA requirements for reports. The >program allows the use of DXF files to import/export data between AutoCAD. > > >

[10sNut]

Hi Karl,

Thanks for the input.

My orginal post should have specified that I am trying to model a post-developed site with multiple linked subareas, an elaborate pipe system, and two ponds (interconnected).

I believe that my first error was the creation of a master .tab file.

I have begun splitting my site (and master.tab) into post sub-area zones (which include a Tt through each subsequent downstream zone) so that I may create a hydrograph file for each one and then combine them at each pond.

Does the LDT software handle interconnected pond routing, and if so, is the downstream pond just looking for the .hdc from the upstream pond?

Thanks,
Aaron

[Anonymous]

Hey Karl; I'll agree to disagree one more time on this ongoing issue, how about you? Have you noticed the difference in volumes produced by the Pond option in Grading, and the Stage-Storage calc for the same Pond in Hydrology? It's not slight, by any means. I'm prepared to receive the cat-o-nine-tails treatment once again, if you feel the need to apply it. -- Don Reichle "King Of Work-Arounds" LDT3 - SP1/CD3 - SP1 On WIN2K SP4 Dell 1.6 Ghz P4 512MB RAM NVIDIA 32MB AGP "Karl Fuls" wrote in message news:421930e1$1_2@newsprd01... > Don, > > It appears that you have an opinion on everything regardless of whether > you actually read the question at hand, have accurate information in > your reply, are using the same version of software, or are offering > something constructive . He's talking about routing linked subareas > across a site - not doing pond calcs or routing through elaborate pipe > systems. > > I use the TR-55 portion of LDT all the time with excellent results and > satisfactory reviews. The stage-storage calcs are fine - there is a > problem using orifices in the stage-discharge portion so I use my own > home brewed Excel spreadsheet to create my .sdc files. > > I'd be very careful in extrapolating your views to being that 'of most > people'. I'm certainly not one of them, and I suspect there are others > out there who are using all or part of the built in hydrology tools to > do their work. If you have an opinion, state it as your own - don't > project it as that of a group unless they are willing to stand behind > your claims. > > As for the original question, I'm a little confused on what he is > actually asking. I need a little more information before I can make an > accurate, constructive reply - but don't let that stop you..... > > -- > Karl Fuls PLS > Autocad AEC Training and Consulting > Autodesk Discussion Group Facilitator > > > > Don Reichle wrote: > > >Hey 10s; > > > >I do so hate to be the bearer of bad news, but most people are not in the > >habit of advising others to use LDT's Hydrology package. There are some > >quirks in its current calculation routines. Pond Stage Storage being one of > >them. > > > >It will probably be money well spent to investigate some of the other > >Hydrology/Hydraulics software on the market. I would recommend this one, as > >have others on the discussion group recently... > >http://www.intelisolve.com/stormsew.html > >and they also do hydrographs... > >http://www.intelisolve.com/hydrographs.html > > > >I've had the chance to use the piping modeler, and was able to produce > >output to satisfy the City of Watsonville, CA requirements for reports. The > >program allows the use of DXF files to import/export data between AutoCAD. > > > > > >

[Anonymous]

Hi Aaron, The Ponds tools only allow you to deal with one pond at a time. When you define a pond you create a stage-storage curve. You then need to add the outlet characteristics of the pond - bearing in mind that an orifice does not create any flow till it is drowned. If you add an inflow hydrograph you will get an outflow hydrograph. There are tools to combine hydrographs so you can add other data to the outflow before using it as the inflow to a downstream pond. Hence, for a "system" you can be faced with quite a bit of work requiring care in managing filenames of the hydrographs and lots of repetitive work to investigate the system. If this project is not a one off, you may be better looking at more sophisticated software to analyse the system. I would look at www.watercom.com.au for a program which can handle a full network with up to 10 ponds, large numbers of pipes, open channels etc. and I'm sure there is other software around with this type of capability, although I have no specific knowledge. -- Laurie Comerford CADApps www.cadapps.com.au "10sNut" wrote in message news:10262690.1108993113997.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum1.autodesk.com... > Hi Karl, > > Thanks for the input. > > My orginal post should have specified that I am trying to model a post-developed site with multiple linked subareas, an elaborate pipe system, and two ponds (interconnected). > > I believe that my first error was the creation of a master .tab file. > > I have begun splitting my site (and master.tab) into post sub-area zones (which include a Tt through each subsequent downstream zone) so that I may create a hydrograph file for each one and then combine them at each pond. > > Does the LDT software handle interconnected pond routing, and if so, is the downstream pond just looking for the .hdc from the upstream pond? > > Thanks, > Aaron

[10sNut]

Thanks for the reply Laurie.

In defining a pond, using the "Pond Outflow Design" dialogue box, is it necessary to have an inflow pipe?

For an attached outflow structure, when you are prompted for a "flow" is that required, and is "inlet elev" the same as the invert elev for that outlet pipe when using a culvert as the outlet structure?

I'm trying to model a "dry" pond with a standard culvert pipe as an outflow and have not been able to extract an .sdc file.
My .ssc graph looks fine.

What am I missing?

Aaron

[Anonymous]

Hi Aaron, A pond only has a set (possibly only and outlet pipe and an overflow weir) of outflow features. The inlet to the pond is always via a hydrograph, which is assumed to be independent of elevation. The "inlet" you are referring to is probably the Inlet to the "Outlet" pipe. -- Regards, Laurie Comerford www.cadapps.com.au "10sNut" wrote in message news:31088484.1109028043968.JavaMail.jive@jiveforum2.autodesk.com... > Thanks for the reply Laurie. > > In defining a pond, using the "Pond Outflow Design" dialogue box, is it > necessary to have an inflow pipe? > > For an attached outflow structure, when you are prompted for a "flow" is > that required, and is "inlet elev" the same as the invert elev for that > outlet pipe when using a culvert as the outlet structure? > > I'm trying to model a "dry" pond with a standard culvert pipe as an > outflow and have not been able to extract an .sdc file. > My .ssc graph looks fine. > > What am I missing? > > Aaron

[10sNut]

Laurie,

Bare with me, I'm at home and not in front of my work station.

Point 1) I will add an overflow weir to my list of outflow features along with my existing outlet pipe.

Question: Is it necessary to add a flow (combined .HDC file discharging into the pond) in the Culvert calculator section of my outflow pipe and the overflow weir section? I was under the impression that this file was not necessary until I was ready to create a .SIM file. Is the default Inflow pipe a necessity? A technical note in the Civil 3 handbook states that the "Inflow pipe" is to be used for an existing base flow into the system only, I believe.

Point 2) Understood.

Point 3) You are correct, in your statement that the "inlet" I was referring to is the inlet or invert to the "Outlet" pipe. The Civil 3 book shows catch points (benchmarks) for structures, i.e. top of culvert, center of orifice, and top of trapezoidal weir.

Question: Am I to assume that this program needs me to input the numbers for those points (elevations) or does the program do that automatically?

Thank you again for your time and patience,
Aaron