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Distinguished Contributor
bchapman
Posts: 241
Registered: ‎07-14-2004
Message 1 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

1196 Views, 22 Replies
11-16-2006 12:48 PM
I am interested learning how other drafters design and show their design of flat road intersections (0.5%). More specifically, our city wishes to use valley gutters but when we match profiles to the edge of pavement our intersections will create "bird baths" due to the crown shown in our profiles.

All the profiles are completed already so I am struggling with making our drafters redo them (5 miles of roads and countless amount of intersections). I feel the best solution is to start a grade break about 100' down the intersection matching whatever grade the profile has (even on a vertical curve), flattening the pavement along the valley gutter so theirs no crown and do this by showing grade break lines in plan and in the profile, for stations 0-100 show a dimension stating "see plan for grading" and if in a vertical curve "Sta: 0-1+00 for vertical control only".

Opinions?

How does everyone else approach this issue? I've worked for the same company for seven years but generally tend to simply show drainage arrows and let the field kinda figure it out...but this isn't working anymore.

This part isn't the problem though. The part is I need to know if this is standard practice.
- upgrading, still
*Don Reichle
Message 2 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 01:28 PM in reply to: bchapman
I've got a sample of what you're talking about civilychallenged using the
very grade you've mentioned, but as I'm using CDGPURGE to get rid of the
last of a set of Architectural dwg files we've just received today, I won't
be able to get access to it for about 10 minutes - hopefully.

I'll show what I'm talking about at that juncture in time.

Stay tuned for others comments also, as I'm sure they will be along shortly.

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." :-o
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop :-) !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5398949@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am interested learning how other drafters design and show their design of
flat road intersections (0.5%). More specifically, our city wishes to use
valley gutters but when we match profiles to the edge of pavement our
intersections will create "bird baths" due to the crown shown in our
profiles.

All the profiles are completed already so I am struggling with making our
drafters redo them (5 miles of roads and countless amount of intersections).
I feel the best solution is to start a grade break about 100' down the
intersection matching whatever grade the profile has (even on a vertical
curve), flattening the pavement along the valley gutter so theirs no crown
and do this by showing grade break lines in plan and in the profile, for
stations 0-100 show a dimension stating "see plan for grading" and if in a
vertical curve "Sta: 0-1+00 for vertical control only".

Opinions?

How does everyone else approach this issue? I've worked for the same
company for seven years but generally tend to simply show drainage arrows
and let the field kinda figure it out...but this isn't working anymore.

This part isn't the problem though. The part is I need to know if this is
standard practice.
Distinguished Contributor
bchapman
Posts: 241
Registered: ‎07-14-2004
Message 3 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 01:29 PM in reply to: bchapman
THANK YOU!
- upgrading, still
*Joe Bouza
Message 4 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 01:56 PM in reply to: bchapman

civilychallenged, If you profile gutter to gutter
this will even occur in more steep gade situations.

 

Try this approached: note the uphill side has a
level curv return but has plenty of pitch to flow into the valley
gutter.

 

Just to give you a point of reference this took me
5-10 minutes

 

[img src="@130615"]

I am interested learning how
other drafters design and show their design of flat road intersections (0.5%).
More specifically, our city wishes to use valley gutters but when we match
profiles to the edge of pavement our intersections will create "bird baths" due
to the crown shown in our profiles. 

All the profiles are completed
already so I am struggling with making our drafters redo them (5 miles of roads
and countless amount of intersections).   I feel the best solution is
to start a grade break about 100' down the intersection matching whatever grade
the profile has (even on a vertical curve), flattening the pavement along the
valley gutter so theirs no crown and do this by showing grade break lines in
plan and  in the profile, for stations 0-100 show a dimension stating "see
plan for grading" and if in a vertical curve "Sta: 0-1+00 for vertical control
only".

Opinions?

How does everyone else approach this issue? 
I've worked for the same company for seven years but generally tend to simply
show drainage arrows and let the field kinda figure it out...but this isn't
working anymore.

This part isn't the problem though.  The part is I
need to know if this is standard practice.
*Don Reichle
Message 5 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 02:01 PM in reply to: bchapman
Here you go, and I needed to use 0.2 ft contour interval to get the point
across. ;-)

Since we're talking 0.5% grades on my T intersection.

And I used Terrain>Surface Utilities>Label Slope to get the slopes from the
FG surface I used for this.

HTH

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." :-o
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop :-) !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5399022@discussion.autodesk.com...
THANK YOU!
Distinguished Contributor
bchapman
Posts: 241
Registered: ‎07-14-2004
Message 6 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 02:31 PM in reply to: bchapman
It appears that people warp the intersections the same way.

The problem is our profiles in our plotted improvement plans do not reflect that warped section, as minor as the grade difference might be, we match the VG with our centerline and according to some we are having problems due to our 3% cross slope on our street sections...

I need to know what "standard practice" is for everyone regarding how they diplay this concept on their improvement plans.

I simply show drainage arrows in my plan view at the intersections and assume that contractors and our construction managers should be able to handle it, even if the minor grade change at the intersection isn't reflecting the warp exactly. This isn't enough though...we are recieving several comments in-house concerning our centerline profiles not reflecting that warped section exactly (it's kinda ridiculous to me)...and that because we have a 3% cross slope on our streets, we are causing bird baths.

So...my solution (so we don't have to redesign every profile to reflect that warp exactly) is to place a note in the profile stating "see plan for grading".

Is this what everyone else does...or do they spend the time to ensure that the warped section is displayed acurately within both plan and profile?

I've requested the option to raise the 3% cross slope (create a supered road @ intersections) but that was shot down...

any ideas?
- upgrading, still
*Don Reichle
Message 7 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 02:58 PM in reply to: bchapman
I guess it may be a result of everyone's concept of what comes 1st, in these
regards. To me it's always the grading that comes 1st, so my Details are
found in that particular venue - the Grading Plans. Then the Const Plans
(Plan & Profile) follow sometime after the grading is complete.

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." :-o
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop :-) !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5399096@discussion.autodesk.com...
It appears that people warp the intersections the same way.

The problem is our profiles in our plotted improvement plans do not reflect
that warped section, as minor as the grade difference might be, we match the
VG with our centerline and according to some we are having problems due to
our 3% cross slope on our street sections...

I need to know what "standard practice" is for everyone regarding how they
diplay this concept on their improvement plans.

I simply show drainage arrows in my plan view at the intersections and
assume that contractors and our construction managers should be able to
handle it, even if the minor grade change at the intersection isn't
reflecting the warp exactly. This isn't enough though...we are recieving
several comments in-house concerning our centerline profiles not reflecting
that warped section exactly (it's kinda ridiculous to me)...and that because
we have a 3% cross slope on our streets, we are causing bird baths.

So...my solution (so we don't have to redesign every profile to reflect that
warp exactly) is to place a note in the profile stating "see plan for
grading".

Is this what everyone else does...or do they spend the time to ensure that
the warped section is displayed acurately within both plan and profile?

I've requested the option to raise the 3% cross slope (create a supered road
@ intersections) but that was shot down...

any ideas?
*Don Reichle
Message 8 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-16-2006 08:10 PM in reply to: bchapman
And in reading this over at home now, I guess I should add that these
Details I referred to would be in-tune with the work that we're discussing
in this thread.

I hope it's plainly obvious that it's not "all" Details, to which I'm
referring here.

The "ground-work" (literally) is what I'm referring to in these regards c.c.
So in regards to Cross-Gutters, the necessary Details, as well as the
parameters for each one's construction, would be far more easily
accomplished within the Grading Plans.

At least the type I'm used to out here on/near the Left Coast.

Let's see if I am able to find a sample of what I'm talking about here...

See the attached Zip file for the PNG of a sample intersection, produced
with 3D polys.

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." :-o
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop :-) !!

LDT/CD-2K7
C3D-2K7
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.2GHz
XPPro 32bit SP2
1GB RAM
Nvidia GeForce FX 5200 128MB
WD 36GB Raptor

"The only Constant is Change".


"Don Reichle" wrote in message
news:5399134@discussion.autodesk.com...
I guess it may be a result of everyone's concept of what comes 1st, in these
regards. To me it's always the grading that comes 1st, so my Details are
found in that particular venue - the Grading Plans. Then the Const Plans
(Plan & Profile) follow sometime after the grading is complete.

--
Don Reichle
"The only thing worse than training your staff, and having them leave is -
not training your staff, and having them stay." :-o
A reminder taken from Graphics Solution Providers' Calendar page
--------------------------------------------------------------------
!! Please discuss whatever we tell you with your SysMgr !!
!! They appreciate staying in the loop :-) !!

CivilSeries-2K4
Intel Xeon 3.2GHz 2GB RAM
XPPro 32bit SP2
Nvidia Quadro NVS 285 256MB

"The only Constant is Change".


wrote in message news:5399096@discussion.autodesk.com...
It appears that people warp the intersections the same way.

The problem is our profiles in our plotted improvement plans do not reflect
that warped section, as minor as the grade difference might be, we match the
VG with our centerline and according to some we are having problems due to
our 3% cross slope on our street sections...

I need to know what "standard practice" is for everyone regarding how they
diplay this concept on their improvement plans.

I simply show drainage arrows in my plan view at the intersections and
assume that contractors and our construction managers should be able to
handle it, even if the minor grade change at the intersection isn't
reflecting the warp exactly. This isn't enough though...we are recieving
several comments in-house concerning our centerline profiles not reflecting
that warped section exactly (it's kinda ridiculous to me)...and that because
we have a 3% cross slope on our streets, we are causing bird baths.

So...my solution (so we don't have to redesign every profile to reflect that
warp exactly) is to place a note in the profile stating "see plan for
grading".

Is this what everyone else does...or do they spend the time to ensure that
the warped section is displayed acurately within both plan and profile?

I've requested the option to raise the 3% cross slope (create a supered road
@ intersections) but that was shot down...

any ideas?
*jd-drafter
Message 9 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-17-2006 06:57 AM in reply to: bchapman
>"Don Reichle" wrote in message
>news:5399311@discussion.autodesk.com...


>See the attached Zip file for the PNG of a sample intersection, produced
>with 3D polys.

heh... heh...

that looks vaguely familiar.... 8^)

jjd
*neilw
Message 10 of 23 (1,196 Views)

Re: Grading @ Intersection - Profiles

11-17-2006 07:41 AM in reply to: bchapman
Hi Civilychallenged,

I just had discussions with some of our staff about this very issue last
week. The problem you are having is due to the common practice of grading
the profile centerline of the intersecting side street to meet the edge of
pavement of the main street rather than the centerline. If you think about
the effect of designing the intersection this way, at the point where the
side street meets the edge of pavement of the main road, the crown of the
side street is at the edge of pavement elevation of the main road. This
means that the edge of pavement of the side street is BELOW the edge of
pavement of the main road due to the crown slope of the side street. Now in
most cases the flowline of the main road can be projected at some minimal
grade until it catches grade with the side road, but in cases where the side
road is already at minimal grade (i.e. 0.5%) the flowlines will never meet.
Thus the "proper" way to design the intersection would be to intersect the
profiles at the CENTERLINES of the 2 roads. This places the edge of pavement
of the side road at the same elevation of the main road (assuming the roads
have identical width and crown slopes). Of course the two roads would not
actually be constructed to meet at the crowns. The side road crown would
transition from some point before the intersection (typically at the PC of
the curb radius) down to meet the edge of pavement of the main road. If you
can visualize the resulting TIN of the intersection, there would be a
triangle TIN face with a vertex at the points where the edge of pavements
meet and connecting at the crown of the side road at the PC station of the
curb return.

So to answer the question, the apparently common practice of interecting the
profiles at the edge of pavement is fundamentally incorrect.

wrote in message news:5398949@discussion.autodesk.com...
I am interested learning how other drafters design and show their design of
flat road intersections (0.5%). More specifically, our city wishes to use
valley gutters but when we match profiles to the edge of pavement our
intersections will create "bird baths" due to the crown shown in our
profiles.

All the profiles are completed already so I am struggling with making our
drafters redo them (5 miles of roads and countless amount of intersections).
I feel the best solution is to start a grade break about 100' down the
intersection matching whatever grade the profile has (even on a vertical
curve), flattening the pavement along the valley gutter so theirs no crown
and do this by showing grade break lines in plan and in the profile, for
stations 0-100 show a dimension stating "see plan for grading" and if in a
vertical curve "Sta: 0-1+00 for vertical control only".

Opinions?

How does everyone else approach this issue? I've worked for the same
company for seven years but generally tend to simply show drainage arrows
and let the field kinda figure it out...but this isn't working anymore.

This part isn't the problem though. The part is I need to know if this is
standard practice.
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