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Wire Number Format

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Message 1 of 17
manikandaprabhuc
1394 Views, 16 Replies

Wire Number Format

Hi,

 

i need to show my Wire Number as attached Format.

 

anyone Please  guide me to achive that.

 

Thanks in Advance.

 

Regards

 

Manikanda  

Regards
Prabhu.C
Engineer-Tech.Support
KKM Soft
Autodesk Authorized Reseller
India
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16 REPLIES 16
Message 2 of 17

What you seek is not possible without some customization.  However, bear in mind that what is commonly referred to as a wire number is actually the number of an electrical node.  It has more to do with the electrical potential of the wires in the node (i.e. voltage) than it does the components on either end of the wires in the node.  That is why it is usual and customary for the "wire number" to appear the same on all of the wire markers for each end of each wire in the node.  It is a troubleshooting tool.  The From/To List will contain the node number (a.k.a. wire number) and the From and To component connection information.  I have my panel shop print a 2-line wire identification label. The first line is the node number and the second line is the component/pin assignment. Obviously, the second line of the label is different for each end of a wire.  I have basically merged the DIN/IEC standard for marking wires with their connection information (helpful when replacing a component) with the U.S. standard of marking the wire with a node number (for troubleshooting).

 

Hint: AutoCAD Electrical uses the term network to refer to a node.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




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Message 3 of 17

Hi @dougmcalexander =, it's been a while since this post. I've been checking your website and the information you have given related to the different standards for components tagging (IEC81346-2, IEC61346-2, IEC61346-1...). You also said that you preferred the IEC61346-1 (based on DIN and suppressed a long time ago) for your European projects, I wanted to ask you, did you continue using it? It's extremely useful and valuable the information you have shared.

 

I'm working on some Projects in New Zealand and not sure what is the right standard to follow. I don't like the IEC81346-2 too much, it is crazy for me to accept that a circuit breaker and a contactor are going to have the same tag form "QA"...

 

I'm trying to build an internal standard to follow for component and wire numbering. This is going to be applied to those clients that do not have a specific requirement/standard to meet. Regarding the wire numbering, do you know if there is a standard to apply? I have just seen "good practices" to do it. What forms have you been applying in European projects and what do you think is the best practical way to do this? Considering future maintenance and operations. I hope to define some forms that can be set in ACADE and get automatically this data!

 

Thanks

 

 

Message 4 of 17

I use symbols from the IEC4 library folder unless my customer specifies for me to use the IEC-60617 library.  To install the IEC2 and IEC4 libraries you must choose the Legacy IEC option during installation.

 

I question why Autodesk chose to name the "newer" library IEC-60617.  IEC-60617 covers the look of the symbols.  The symbols look the same as the ones in the IEC2 (approx. 2mm text height) and IEC4 (approx. 4mm text height) libraries.  IEC-61346 and IEC-81346 cover the device ID/tagging format.  So it would have made more sense to name the libraries according to the device ID/tagging standard they employ, such as IEC-81346-2.

 

I thought it was somewhat comical that the IEC released the two-letter codes as a way to clarify the confusion they caused with the IEC-81346-1 format.  It caused confusion when a pilot light became the letter "P" for presenting information, instead of the letter "H”.  And "K", normally for a relay, can now represent a relay, a solenoid or a PLC module, just to point out a couple of examples of how the standard became confusing.

 

The IEC2 and IEC4 libraries are also updated somewhat, versus IEC-61346-1.  IEC-61346-1 is more equivalent to the DIN standard, which is my preferred standard.  But I have compromised, and I use the “updated” IEC4 library for my training classes.  It is based upon IEC-61346-2, which is basically IEC-81346-1.  Pilot light is "P" instead of the traditional "H", a solenoid is "K", instead of "Y", for example.  I have archived copies of the original IEC2 and IEC4 libraries, which still use the original DIN designations.  I use my archived IEC4 library for my customers who prefer the original DIN style tagging.

 

When I teach my admin+workflow course to an IEC client, I use the “updated” IEC4 library, based upon IEC-81346-1, the compromise library.  There is a special file you can create and drop into a folder to overrule the library designated tag letters.  You can force the "P" back to "H" for example.

 

As far as wire numbers go, that was originally an American standard, typically based upon the line reference numbers assigned to each “rung” of a ladder diagram, or just sequentially numbered in order of appearance in the schematic.  I use the line reference method for U.S. customers, unless specified otherwise, but I tend to use the sequentially numbered method for IEC clients. 

 

When I first got into controls design (I started in Germany), wire numbers were not used.  Each end of the wire was marked with the terminal designation of the component where the wire would connect.  I argued with my German counterparts the benefit of numbering wires for troubleshooting/tracing purposes.  They eventually relented and, using the two-line labels from Brady, we would mark the wires with both a wire number (1st line) and the component connection information (2nd line).  

 

As some of the European CAD software developers started trying to sell their software in the U.S., they ran into some pushback from the American customers who insisted upon having the ability to number the wires.  They modified their software to allow for wire numbering, so wire numbering is fairly common these days.

 

I hope this helps you.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




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Message 5 of 17
rhesusminus
in reply to: jesusrperezd

It's an oversimplification to say that QA is used for "circuit breakers" and "contactors".  Control Contactors are not QA, for example. MCB's are FC.

The 2019 version of 81346-2 has a third letter involved as well, so QAA is the power contactor, while QAB is the circuit breaker.

The whole idea here is to describe more about the component just by reading the tag on some list.

M = Motor. Electromagnetic? Hydraulic? Pneumatic?

MA = motor that rotates driven by electromagnetic force

MAA = motor that rotates continuously driven by electromagnetic force (Electric motor)

MAB = motor that rotates in steps, driven by electromagnetic force (Stepper motor)

 

In _my_ opinion, instead of creating your own standard, why not just use a standard that's already defined? If the customers ask "why this and that," you can just point them to an international standard. You don't have to "defend" your choices. If the customer wants to use their own rules, that's fine. Everyone picks what they like from the standards anyways and does as they've always done for the rest.

 

Changes take time, so be the person that drives the change, not the person that prefers to hang on to standards that are decades old.


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
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Message 6 of 17
jesusrperezd
in reply to: rhesusminus

Hi, I got your point. But if I select the IEC 60617 library and insert a circuit breaker and then a contactor coil, both are tagged as QAx, there is no third letter to make a difference. I'm trying to be more efficient by taking advantage of the automatic tools for component tagging and wire numbering, so do I have to add the third letter manually?

Message 7 of 17

And this is EXACTLY the problem with AutoCAD Electrical these days.

Autodesk should make the changes to the icon menus and symbol libraries so that it complies with international standards, just like the competition do. You pay for the right to use the software, right?

But, I've been waiting 20 years for AutoCAD Electrical to implement some real IEC support. Like having wire numbers and signals consider the location aspect of the project, so that you can have wire number "1" in two different enclosures, just like you can have "-K1" in two different enclosures without seeing an error message.

 

This software feels so close to abandonware now unfortunately. 

 


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
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Message 8 of 17

Thanks for your honest opinion

Message 9 of 17

Trond is correct about the wire numbering. AutoCAD Electrical doesn’t differentiate wire number 100 in one location of a system as different than wire number 100 in another location of the system. This goes back to the origin of wire numbers, from America. They are actually electrical node numbers.  The technicians expect to put a multimeter on wire number 100 anywhere in the system and measure the same potential. So the same wire/node number should not be used more than once in a system, unless it is on the same electrical node with all other wires labeled as 100.  

 

There is a project level option that is available for those who prefer to assign a unique sequential number to each and every wire in the system. The option box is labeled as “Per Wire Basis”.  It forces every wire to get a unique number, even if it is part of the same electrical node as other wires. This is what I call true wire numbering, as opposed to node numbering. But Americans prefer node numbering, because of the troubleshooting benefits, though they loosely call it wire numbering.

 

What the DIN standard did for us is something the Americans never thought about.  That is, being able to have two enclosures in the same system, with the same device ID(s), yet not be considered as duplicated device IDs.  Installation and Location codes are factored into the complete component ID, making it possible to differentiate one from the other, even if the tag portion of their designation is identical. So a relay in panel A can be tagged the same in panel B, but because the tag in each case is preceded by a different Installation and/or Location code, the two relays are considered as unique. They might both be designated as -K1 but one is the -K1 in Panel A while the other is the -K1 in Panel B.  The Installation and Location codes make them unique. 



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




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Message 10 of 17

The problem with "per wire basis" is that you have to draw like this to make it work:

Capture.JPG

 

 

I noticed this back in 2008. Again, nothing has happened to make the product better with regard to this:

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-electrical-forum/wire-numbering-on-per-wire-basis/m-p/2293371...


Trond Hasse Lie
AutoCAD Electrical and EPLAN expert
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Message 11 of 17

I don’t know whose idea it was to add the option of “per wire basis” but it has confused many, and I have yet to be able to justify its use.

 

Technical colloquialisms, as I call them, have caused confusion. My first job in controls was as a field engineer for a German machine builder. The equipment was designed to operate at 380VAC. They wanted to sell to U.S. customers. They had heard Americans throw around the term 440 Volts when referring to American industrial installations. The German engineers did the math and reasoned that their 380VAC machines could handle 440VAC. But the American industrial installations typically have 480VAC.  And the standards in the U.S. allow a 10% variance. The machines would slowly cook until transformers, motors, heaters, etc. failed. My first job as a field engineer was to find the root cause of the failures. I knew the answer immediately. It was caused by a misunderstanding, due to careless rhetoric by people who just parroted terms they had heard thrown around. It was caused by technical colloquialism.

 

People familiar with the origins of “wire numbering” note that they are referring to electrical node numbering, not a unique number assigned to each and every physical piece of wire.  They just call it wire numbering because the node numbers are affixed to wires.  

Fortunately, the “Per Wire Basis” option isn’t enabled by default. But newcomers to the software, who haven’t had formal training, sometimes stumble across that option and interpret it to simply mean that they want their wires numbered. They reason, “Well, of course I want each wire to be numbered!”

I have handled more troubleshooting calls than I can count about this. “Every wire in the node is being assigned a different number!”  I ask them to open Project Properties and there it is - the option for “Per Wire Basis” is checked.  I tell them to uncheck the box.  They retort, “But I want all of my wires to get a number!”  

 

I would say that it was a poor choice to label the option box as “Per Wire Basis”.  Perhaps “Assign each wire within a node a unique number” would have been a better choice.  It takes up more space to label it as such but saving space has caused confusion. 

Speaking of technical colloquialisms, line reference numbers are also referred to as rung numbers in certain dialogs. That can cause confusion as well. They are actually line reference numbers, but again, American technicians routinely call them rung numbers. The software originated in the U.S. and it was written with the American vernacular in mind. I make it a point to point out these technical colloquialisms to my customers during training.

 

I have adapted European software for use in the U.S. and vice versa. I have found most software to be adaptable to some degree.  But you might have to create your own symbol library, if you find that the supplied libraries don’t meet your need.  I created my own DIN/IEC symbol library for AutoCAD Electrical long before the Italian gentlemen were hired by Autodesk to create IEC2 and IEC4.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 12 of 17
vladop
in reply to: manikandaprabhuc

Hi,

please open "API Help"

API.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Than expand "Section C - Wires and Wire Numbers" and select "c:wd_get_wire_netlst"

vladop_0-1678183218187.png

 

At the bottom you will find the following LISP example you can modify to your needs.

 

This snippet of code uses the wire "netlist" to find the component tags at each end of a wire and then calculate a special

wire number based upon this information.

(defun c:milnum ( / en ed x compconlst comp1_en comp2_en pin1 pin2 new_wireno netlst str comp1_tag
comp2_tag
xterm1_en xterm2_en)
  (while (setq x (entsel "nSelect wire for special MIL wire number format:"))
    (setq en (car x))
    (setq ed (entget en))
    (if (= (cdr (assoc 0 ed)) "LINE")
      (progn ; okay to continue
        (if (setq netlst (c:wd_get_wire_netlst en 1))
          (progn
            (setq compconlst (nth 9 netlst))
            (cond
              ((= (length compconlst) 2)
                ; two connected components, okay to continue
                (setq comp1_en (car (car compconlst)))
                (setq comp2_en (car (cadr compconlst)))
                (setq xterm1_en (cadr (car compconlst)))
                (setq xterm2_en (cadr (cadr compconlst)))
                ; Get the suffix of the first component's X?TERMxx attrib
                (setq str (cdr (assoc 2 (entget xterm1_en))))
                ; Get PIN number of first component
                (setq pin1 (c:wd_getattrval comp1_en (strcat "TERM" (substr str 7))))
                (if (AND (not pin1) (c:wd_getattrval comp1_en "TAGSTRIP"))
                  ; Terminal symbol, just grab the TERM01 terminal number
                  (setq pin1 (c:wd_getattrval comp1_en "TERM01")))
                ; Get the suffix of the 2nd component's X?TERMxx attrib
                (setq str (cdr (assoc 2 (entget xterm2_en))))
                ; Get PIN number of first component
                (setq pin2 (c:wd_getattrval comp2_en (strcat "TERM" (substr str 7))))
                (if (AND (not pin2) (c:wd_getattrval comp2_en "TAGSTRIP"))
                  ; Terminal symbol, just grab the TERM01 terminal number
                  (setq pin2 (c:wd_getattrval comp2_en "TERM01")))
                ; Get tag of the two components
                (setq comp1_tag (c:wd_getattrval comp1_en "TAG1*,TAG2*,TAGSTRIP,TAG,TAG_*"))
                (setq comp2_tag (c:wd_getattrval comp2_en "TAG1*,TAG2*,TAGSTRIP,TAG,TAG_*"))
                (if (not comp1_tag)(setq comp1_tag ""))
                (if (not comp2_tag)(setq comp2_tag ""))
                (setq new_wireno comp1_tag)
                (if (AND pin1 (/= pin1 ""))(setq new_wireno (strcat new_wireno "-" pin1)))
                (setq new_wireno (strcat new_wireno "/" comp2_tag))
                (if (AND pin2 (/= pin2 ""))(setq new_wireno (strcat new_wireno "-" pin2)))
                (c:wd_putwnf en new_wireno) ; put the wire number on wire
             )
              (T (princ "n  other than two connected componentsn"))
           )
         )
       )
     )
   )
 )
  (princ)
)
Message 13 of 17

Hi guys, What I can do If I want to apply the third letter form in some of the IEC Symbols avoiding manually changing them on each project? I was wondering if I go to the lib folder and open the cad block for those I want this third letter and update the attribute TAG with this form... When I insert them or use the retag tool, is this form kept? thank you for all the info you are sharing.

Message 14 of 17

If you want to always have the same third letter, just edit the block itself, as you surmised, and modify the TAG1 or TAG2 attribute. Save the block and it will always use your preferred tag format.



Doug McAlexander


Design Engineer/Consultant/Instructor/Mentor specializing in AutoCAD Electrical training and implementation support

Phone and Web-based Support Plans Available

Phone: (770) 841-8009

www.linkedin.com/in/doug-mcalexander-1a77623




Please Accept as Solution if I helped you. Likes are also much appreciated.
Message 15 of 17
santhosh_r
in reply to: vladop

Thanks for your information, how to execute that in the  drawing from the comma

nd. 

Message 16 of 17
santhosh_r
in reply to: vladop

c:wd_get_wire_netlst" How I can apply my drawing by the command. Plz guide or make video on  ( how to wire number tags based on connected component tag-id at each end) it's more helps for my drawing. 

 

 

Thanks. 

Message 17 of 17
vladop
in reply to: manikandaprabhuc

Have a look at this link which explains the improved variant that works on all drawings:

https://nateholt.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/enhanced-wire-number-tags-based-on-connected-components-au... 

At the bottom of the post there is a link "Download full file here"

Download file (milnumx_alldwg.lsp), drag it to your drawing and type milnum_alldwg in the command line.

 

And this is an older link for the same feature:

https://nateholt.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/hello-world/ 

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