Terminal Strip Pin Descriptions are not reliable or get changed to "I" & "E"

[Anonymous]

Hello all,

I've been looking for a solution to this problem for a while and I haven't found anything.  Maybe I'm not wording it correctly in my search?

Anyways, here's my problem.

Let's say I make a Terminal Strip with terminals numbered 221 to 231.

-They are 2 level terminals.  Both levels have the same terminal number.

-Level 1 (TOP) has pin descriptions "A" and "B" (left and right respectively)

-Level 2 (BOTTOM) has pin descriptions "C" and "D" (left and right respectively)

Let's say I run wires to and from components.  Everything is fine, however, it seems arbitrary (regardless of how the terminal is set up) as to which side of the terminal the wires get wired to in the "TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR".  If you look at arrow A) and B), you'll see that TI/PWR+ and TI/PWR- go to different sides of the terminal.

So I can fix this by using "SWITCH TERMINAL DESIGNATION" in my TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR.  I now have a new problem.

When I run my REPORTS>FROM/TO wiring list, any terminal that had the "SWITCH TERMINAL DESIGNATION" function implemented will now lose it's "A / B" or "C / D" descriptions and will be replaced with "I / E" (for INTERNAL or EXERNAL). I've been trying to fix this problem for months and the only way to fix it is to create a whole new terminal strip and this is very irritating and time consuming. Please let me know if you know of any solutions or maybe I'm doing something wrong.  Also, let me know if I'm not clear on something.

[Icemanau]

The TERMINAL DESIGNATION attributes are used to indicate the connection direction of the wire using either Internal (I) or External (E).

They are meant to be used by ACADE only and not the user.

When you change the wire connections, you are telling ACADE that this wire is I/E rather than A/B or C/D. Therefore ACADE places the I/E in the appropriate attribute. This is all done automatically and with no user definable parameters that can be changed.

ACADE uses Internal (I) as the LEFT side and External (E) as the RIGHT side of a vertical strip with a rotation of 0 degrees.

Regards Brad

[Anonymous]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the quick response.

I'm a little baffled then...

When you go to Terminal Block Properties, you have the option of showing PIN LEFT & PIN RIGHT. (as shown in the image below)

Is it possible to show these in my reports?

If AutoCAD automatically changes these to I&E, it seems a little odd to have the option to modify it in the first place.

Or is my problem more directed at the type of report I'm generating?  I'm using the FROMTO report.

Thanks for the help

[drathak]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the quick response.

I'm a little baffled then...

When you go to Terminal Block Properties, you have the option of showing PIN LEFT & PIN RIGHT. (as shown in the image below)

Is it possible to show these in my reports?

If AutoCAD automatically changes these to I&E, it seems a little odd to have the option to modify it in the first place.

Or is my problem more directed at the type of report I'm generating?  I'm using the FROMTO report.

Thanks for the help

---

I can understand your confusion.  I just looked at the help file on that screen and I would think the same way as you.  In fact, every reference I could find in the help file made me think the same thing.  I have never put anything in those fields before, and have always had to adjust the directions (Internal/External ) in the TSE to get my terminal blocks arranged the way I want.  And I can't find ANY terminal in my project (a substation) that has data in those fields.  (PINL & PINR)

Heck, here's an article from Autodesk's knowledge base that shows doing exactly what you are trying to do.
http://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-electrical/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2015/ENU/AutoCAD-Electrical/files/GUID-DFA3079F-2AC4-4990-B127-72F4E940D38C-htm.html

Now that I re-read your last paragraph, I think that may be where you need to look.  Have you or anyone edited your FROM/TO report format?

[Anonymous]

Hello Joe,

I set up my terminal more or less the same way as shown on that link.  I know it seems finicky to need to specify where the wires are going on which side of a terminal, but this is a scenario where my client really depends on that information since they have to run several cables into a confined enclosure.

As for the FROM TO report, there's no problems with the exception of those terminal pin descriptions.  Nobody else is modifying this list since I'm working off my hard drive and no other user has access.  Also, no other employee in my department has that level of knowledge with AutoCAD since they're generally ORCAD users.

I also noticed that those PINL and PINR designations are not shown anywhere else in any of the reports.  I tried generating a FROMTO report with ALL the possible variables shown, I figured I could do a process of elimination but nowhere does it show A,B,C,D... just I and E.  The exception to the rule is any documentation generated from the Terminal Strip Editor.

At this point, my only solutions are as follows:

SOLUTION 1:

To Generate a FROMTO report showing I and E, and submit an attached TABULAR TERMINAL STRIP (Terminal Strip Editor, Layout Preview) to show the proper setup.  The TABULAR TERMINAL STRIP does maintain the ABCD terminal pin descriptions, unlike the FROMTO report.  The problem is the TABULAR TERMINAL STRIP doesn't capture any wiring to and from devices that don't require terminals.  This is rather convoluted since I'd rather create one report, not two, in the interest of keeping things simple for myself and the end-user.

SOLUTION 2:

To force the terminal descriptions and carefully rebuild all terminal strips.  This will trick autocad electrical into seeing ABCDEF, if done properly, but it is painstaking and time consuming.  Also I'd have to rely on the hope that nobody makes future changes or corrections in the proper fashion.  I think you can all agree this is not ideal.

I'm crossing my fingers the solution has been under my nose the whole time.  If not, perhaps this is something that can be considered for future updates of ACADE?

Again, I appreciate all the help.

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

I don't have a lot of expertise in this particular area of AutoCAD Electrical but I was able to reproduce the I and E values in the report under the PD1 and PD2 fields. However, I didn't see the terminal properties in those fields before I did the Switch Destination in Terminal Strip Editor. Can you tell me what fields in the report you used to see the terminal properties originally, before you did the switch destinations? I don't see those properties being used anywhere else except in Terminal Strip Editor.

One thing you might look at are the *TERMDESC01 attributes on terminals. These can be added to reports using the User Attributes tool. You would probably have to add all 4 to the User Attributes list, X1TERMDESC01, X2TERMDESC01, X4TERMDESC01, and X8TERMDESC01. You can edit these when you edit a terminal under the Show\Edit Miscellaneous. These attributes are meant to be descriptors for each connection attribute on a terminal. Maybe this will give you what you want?

Regards,

Pat Murnen

[Anonymous]

Hello Pat,

I used X1PIN01 and X1TERMDESC01 as well as X1PIN04 and X1TERMDESC04 to force AutoCAD electrical to show those PINL and PINR descriptions in my attempts to resolve this issue.  Something to also take note of is I have my project set up for wire numbers on an "ON PER WIRE BASIS".  So the wire going into A will be different from wire going to B.

The problems, or inconveniences, that arise from this fix are as follows

1. If I decide to switch PINL and PINR in TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR to adhere to the flow of wires in my drawings, I now have to change 4 more attributes manually.  So it's not a proper representation of the changes made in my TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR. 

2. It's also time consuming and tedious with sometimes unreliable results.  One could just copy and paste a whole new row of terminals and use the COPY TERMINAL PROPERTIES, but now you have to verify that the wires going to A and B in your schematic are the same ones going to A and B in the TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR.  If you start a new page and copy and paste your terminal strip from one page to another, the wires sometimes show being wired in the opposite direction as the previous page in the reports.  I assure you this may work on one page but after generating several terminal strips with hundreds of terminals, you may run into problems.

3. as for the I and E issue that prompted this thread still stands.

So try setting up the Attributes like I mentioned, then switch the destinations in TERMINAL STRIP EDITOR, and you'll notice that, regardless of the four attributes mentioned earlier, you'll get E and I.  If this works out well for you, then I'd like to steal your computer! 

As for the Report Generator, I selected the following fields fo FROM TO.  Please disregard fields that are obviously for something non-terminal related.

LOC1

CMP1 this shows the terminal strip

PIN1 this will show the terminal number

PD1 this shows the pin Description, which will be A,B,C or D, until I switch terminal destinations

LOC2

CMP2

PIN2

PD2

USER1_1

WIRESIZE

USER2_1

WIRECOLOR1

WIRENO

WLAY2

Again, I was playing around with AUTOCAD electrical and decided to select all possible Fields in my report, however, nothing came up.  I understand there are ways to work around this but it just seems to defeat the purpose of the automatic functions that ACADE, an otherwise great program, provides.

Again, I appreciate your assistance in this matter.

Lou Branchaud

Electrical Designer

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

Yes, I was able to reproduce the I and E issue as you described. I just didn't see where the correct values were ever shown in those report fields.

Here is another thought - the pin values that are the terminal block properties shown in Terminal Strip Editor are saved on the terminals as L##PINR and L##PINL where ## is the level. If the terminal is not multi-level then it will be 01. So if you add these as User Attributes then those values show up in the From\To report. I guess you would need to add the ones possible for however many levels that might be present, i.e. L01PINL, L01PINR, L02PINR, L02PINR, etc. 

Regards,

Pat

[Anonymous]

Hello Pat,

How would one go about adding those attributes to the FROM/TO report?

You mentioned adding them to the User Attributes.  How would I go about doing that?

I don't seem to have those attributes available when generating a report (I'm using ACADE 2014).

Cheers,

Lou Branchaud

Electrical Designer

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

The User Attribute feature lets you add attributes and xdata (as of AutoCAD Electrical 2012) as fields in reports if the report doestn' supply it as one of its predefined fields. As long as it is an attribute or xdata with the VIA_WD_ prefix, and it is on a component (not a wire number block, cable marker) they will then show up as available fields for all reports.

Some Help topics that would be helpful. These links go to the 2015 Help but I believe it is the same in 2014.

http://help.autodesk.com/view/ACAD_E/2015/ENU/?guid=GUID-2C3A6B25-77B8-4E80-84B3-EAF08699203A - explains the feature

http://help.autodesk.com/view/ACAD_E/2015/ENU/?guid=GUID-3629296D-92B1-4054-96FD-FF6E8ADA1261 - how to add fields

The User Attributes are saved in a text file with a .wda extension. If you want to create one that is used for all projects, name it default.wda and save it in the base project folder. If you want it to be project-specific name it the same as the project name and save it to the same as the project folder. (with the .wdp file)

When you run your report, click Change Report Format to add the fields. Look at the end of the Available Fields (list on the left) they should be there.

One note, even though these are most likely saved as xdata called VIA_WD_L01PINL, VIA_WD_L01PINR you don't include the VIA_WD_ part when adding it to the user Attributes list.

This method can be used to add custom attributes that you have added to your blocks or attributes and xdata that AutoCAD Electrical uses but for some reason is not a default field in the report. 

Regards,

Pat

[Anonymous]

Pat,

This seems to have worked.

I'm going to try it out for a few days and make sure I don't run into any snags.

I'll bother you guys again should I run into anymore issues.

Thanks again, you've all been helpful!

Cheers,

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

Glad that looks like a solution. 

-Pat

[Anonymous]

Hello again,

I set up my drawings to have the pin descriptions set up as the "A,B,C,D" descriptions and added the XPIN descriptions to my reports.  However, in the wire FROMTO reports, I now have a new problem where it's slightly unreliable.

While most descriptions show the proper A,B,C or D description, a small percentage will just simply show two wires tied to the same side of the terminal regardless of the schematic or the setup in the Terminal Strip Editor.  For example, I have a circuit breaker CB1 going to TERMINAL 100 (side A).  The descriptions are properly set up and the wire on SIDE B will go to component (DEV1).  The FROMTO reports shows the correct wire and pins / pin descriptions for SIDE B to DEV1, however, it shows CB1 also going to SIDE B where it's clearly going to SIDE A.

While the solution provided does sort of work for the most part, it's clunky, time consuming, not convenient for automatic reports and somewhat unreliable.  I've spent too much time on this and I think I'm just going to have to go through the entire drawing and do things manually to meet my deadlines.

I appreciate the help though, Cheers!

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble with this. I would like to send your drawing(s) or small project on to our testing group to see why the components are not showing up as you have them set up in Terminal Strip Editor. If you can send them, please email me directly at pat.murnen@autodesk.com. This will help confirm what the issue is and get it logged. Please include in the email what version of AutoCAD Electrical including any service packs installed. You can tell what updates have been installed by using the Windows Control Panel -> Uninstall a program -> View installed updates (on the left pane).

Regards,

Pat Murnen

[Anonymous]

After playing around with this, here is the only solution I have found though it's far from perfect.

Let's say you build a terminal strip as previously mentioned on this forum.  ie the terminals have pin descriptions A,B,C and D.

If I run a report (including fields PD1 & PD2) and terminals 106 thru 110 show the I & E designations, don't bother trying to fix it.  Simply delete those terminals from your electrical schematics, select terminals that are NOT giving you a problem (let's say 104 and 105), copy and paste them where you like and then place them in the right order / assign jumpers in your Terminal Strip Editor.  Run a new Wire from/to report and your issue should be solved.  This isn't ideal however as it's tedious extra work.  It would be very fustrating for someone who has several hundreds of terminals.

Here are some conditions you should prevent to avoid the automatic renaming of I & E.

 SWITCH TERMINAL DESTINATIONS or TOGGLE TERMINAL DESTINATIONS funtion.  This will almost always rename your pin descriptions from A,B,C,D to I&E.

2. If you copy and paste a terminal strip, make sure immediately that the pin descriptions haven't changed in your reports.  Sometimes you'll have no problems, other times you will.

3. If you must rebuild your terminal strip, delete any JUMPER CHARTS or GRAPHICAL TERMINAL STRIPS you may have generated for the terminal strip in question.  If you must show them, simply add them once your terminal strips are perfect and your project is near completion.

4. Deleting a wire and re-inserting it will not fix the problem.  Nor will any AEREBUILD function or a SWAP BLOCK.  Interestingly enough, if you add a 2nd wire to an already problematic terminal, for some reason in the report, that new wire might show the correct description (A,B,C,D).  However, the original wire will show the I or E.  Don't mistake this for a glimmer of hope.

5. Adding any of the fields XTERMDESC or LxxPINL to your report isn't reliable since it merely shows you which description is on the left or right side of terminal XX.  Not where the wire lands.  This won't be obvious if all your terminals are uniform.  Once you start making drawings a bit more complex, you'll see what I mean.  

If you're going to try and recreate these scenarios, give it a few tries.  I feel like AutoCAD is possessed by the WB singing frog and won't show any mistakes when my co-workers are present.  That or it will give an entirely new set of errors, which is fustrating because this forum response is actually a whittled down version of all the problems that occur using the terminal strip editor.

Hopefully, ACADE will fine-tune the TSE in the future.  I've found it to be touchy, unreliable and problematic and am starting to understand why some clients and employers avoid it altogether.  It's at best a way to verify the ammount of terminals you need and a rough idea of which wires go where.

If you have a more concrete solution, please let me know.  I appreciate any assistance in this matter.

[Colbjørn]

Hi.

Thread Resurrection!

The issue remains the same for AutoCAD Electrical 2017.

Using Terminal Strip Editor will corrupt xxTERMDESCxx attributes and make it impossible to use PD1 and PD2 for TO/FROM reports.

Please Fix!

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

I did a little experimenting with this as I am not an expert on the wire connection attributes and xdata.

First, in Terminal Strip Editor, the values in the T column come from the terminal block properties, PINL and PINR as shown in this image. They are not affected by any internal\external\destination switching in Terminal Strip Editor. They are not included by default in the Wire From\To report but could be added using the xdata names for the values.

The PD1 and PD2 values in the Wire From\To report can actually come from a couple different places. If there is Internal\External information on the wire network then that is shown in the PD1 or PD2 fields. If there is no Internal\External information then any values on the xxTERMDESCxx attributes are shown in the report. This appears to be as designed and I would not recommend putting your own values or descriptions on the xxTERMDESCxx attributes if you also use any of the tools that define the internal\external sides for terminals.

One thing you might consider doing is adding your own attributes for this. For example, I can add a TERMDESC01 attribute to my terminals, add this to my user-defined attributes .WDA files for reports, and have complete control over it. It doesn't have to be call TERMDESC01 I was just trying to make the name meaningful. I also thought having a related TERMDESCxx was supported (list xxTERMxx and TERMxx) but I didn't find anything in the Help. But, even without specific support it would show up in the reports as long as it's added to the User-Defined file.

Not sure this helps but hopefully it clarifies how it currently works and how you might get the information you need in your reports.

Regards,

Pat Murnen

[Colbjørn]

Hi.

You cannot use TERMDESCxx as as user defined attribute, because there are 4 different connections for a terminal symbol.

You have to use the xxTERMDESCxx attribute to get a correct text in the report tool.

Using the Terminal Annotations tools does not break the xxTERMDESCxx attributes. It is only the terminal strip editor.
I just need to know where terminal strip editor is storing the I and E. The Terminal Annotation tools store the I and E in the xxTERMDESCxx attribute.

But the Terminal Strip Editor is storing the value some where else.

[Colbjørn]

Hi.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

You clear the I and E with the wire sequence tool:

Select the problem wire and push this button:

[PatMurnen_Adsk]

Just be aware that when these are removed, the next time you go in to Terminal Strip Editor it won't remember the changes you made that had to do with showing certain components on the right or left of the terminal. 

It looks like Terminal Strip Editor saves the information as xdata VIA_WD_WSEQ2 on the xxTERMxx attributes of the components that are connected to the terminal and not on the terminal itself. This is the same as the wire sequence tool, so it is consistent. But, it is the Wire From\To report that is doing something unusual when it fills in the values for the PD1 and PD2 fields. It isn't a straightforward pull the value off of an attribute. I can't look at the actual code, but it seems to look at the VIA_WD_WSEQ2 value on the connected component and if it exists it uses that for the PD# value. If it doesn't, then it uses the xxTERMDESCxx on the terminal. (I could be wrong but this is what my experimenting showed). 

I will make sure this is still logged but as far as I can tell no changes have been made related to this behavior.

Regards,

Pat